I have a question for the baseball minds here.

[dugoutrex]

The run does NOT count. The batter-runner’s out removes the force after the runner crossed the plate, but the force was still active at the moment of crossing.

Opti

Exactly right.
Not complicated.
Rule is crystal clear.

you have it bad for Shohei but just give it up girl - he's married!

[rockondlouie]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

I don't agree with that. If the run scores before the out I believe the run counts.

Example: the run will count if the runner crossed the plate before the out was recorded. For example, on April 28, 2007, the Indians recorded a double play by catching a fly ball and catching the runner off first base. The runner from third base had already crossed the plate (after tagging up properly), so the run counted.

I also remember a similar play in a Cardinals game years ago.

Not if it's the 3rd out of the inning OR

Of course the runs counts if it's only the 1st or 2nd out, but NOT if it's the 3rd out.

The rule is pretty simple, a runner can NOT RETREAT back towards home plate after hitting the ball.

If he does, he's immediately ruled out and the run is not allowed.

Play: With two out and one on (R2) in the top of the 3rd inning of the Cubs-Pirates game, batter Baez hit a 0-2 fastball from Pirates pitcher Tyler Anderson on the ground to third baseman Erik Gonzalez, who threw to first baseman Will Craig as baserunner R2 Contreras ran toward and rounded third base. When Craig stepped off of first base and down the line toward home plate to receive Gonzalez's throw, batter-runner Baez began retreating toward home plate with Craig in pursuit and Contreras still advancing toward home as well. Baez and Contreras arrived at the dirt circle surrounding home plate at around the same time, and Craig opted to throw to catcher Michael Perez to attempt to retire Contreras, whom Additon declared safe. Perez then threw wildly to first base and Baez took second base on the fielder's choice + error.

Different scenario.

In the original post once the hitter becomes a baserunner he's NOT ALLOWED to retreat back toward home plate and is automatically out.

A runner can retreat back towards home unless he touches the plate. Yes, it is allowed. He is not automatically out.

Yea I amended my other post after you replied.

I started to recall hitter/runners back peddling towards the plate being chased and tagged out.

Again, now I'm confused but I still don't think the run counts if it's the 3rd out.

Who knows.

I do.
Because the language of the rule is very clear and specific on this point.

I knew the run didn't count too no matter what the batter/runner did as long as he's out.

[Melville]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

I don't agree with that. If the run scores before the out I believe the run counts.

Example: the run will count if the runner crossed the plate before the out was recorded. For example, on April 28, 2007, the Indians recorded a double play by catching a fly ball and catching the runner off first base. The runner from third base had already crossed the plate (after tagging up properly), so the run counted.

I also remember a similar play in a Cardinals game years ago.

Not if it's the 3rd out of the inning OR

Of course the runs counts if it's only the 1st or 2nd out, but NOT if it's the 3rd out.

The rule is pretty simple, a runner can NOT RETREAT back towards home plate after hitting the ball.

If he does, he's immediately ruled out and the run is not allowed.

Play: With two out and one on (R2) in the top of the 3rd inning of the Cubs-Pirates game, batter Baez hit a 0-2 fastball from Pirates pitcher Tyler Anderson on the ground to third baseman Erik Gonzalez, who threw to first baseman Will Craig as baserunner R2 Contreras ran toward and rounded third base. When Craig stepped off of first base and down the line toward home plate to receive Gonzalez's throw, batter-runner Baez began retreating toward home plate with Craig in pursuit and Contreras still advancing toward home as well. Baez and Contreras arrived at the dirt circle surrounding home plate at around the same time, and Craig opted to throw to catcher Michael Perez to attempt to retire Contreras, whom Additon declared safe. Perez then threw wildly to first base and Baez took second base on the fielder's choice + error.

Different scenario.

In the original post once the hitter becomes a baserunner he's NOT ALLOWED to retreat back toward home plate and is automatically out.

A runner can retreat back towards home unless he touches the plate. Yes, it is allowed. He is not automatically out.

Yea I amended my other post after you replied.

I started to recall hitter/runners back peddling towards the plate being chased and tagged out.

Again, now I'm confused but I still don't think the run counts if it's the 3rd out.

Who knows.

I do.
Because the language of the rule is very clear and specific on this point.

I knew the run didn't count too no matter what the batter/runner did as long as he's out.

You were correct, of course.

[Melville]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The run would not count.
The tag attempt - successful or not -does not negate the fact that it was a force out situation and the batter would be out for failing to touch first base.
The "time play" exception would therefore not apply.

You are wrong again.

Rather peculiar that you are far more invested in me being wrong than you are at arriving at the correct answer.
Nost regrettable.
In this case, you failed to achieve either.
No apology necessary.
I never get involved in personal agendas.
I am only and always about the game.

[Quincy Varnish]

The run does NOT count. The batter-runner’s out removes the force after the runner crossed the plate, but the force was still active at the moment of crossing.

Opti

Exactly right.
Not complicated.
Rule is crystal clear.

The OP did not mention there were any outs. The rules and scenarios you are citing pertain to inning-ending plays. Provided the batters’ out does not end the inning, the run scores.

[Melville]

The run does NOT count. The batter-runner’s out removes the force after the runner crossed the plate, but the force was still active at the moment of crossing.

Opti

Exactly right.
Not complicated.
Rule is crystal clear.

The OP did not mention there were any outs. The rules and scenarios you are citing pertain to inning-ending plays. Provided the batters’ out does not end the inning, the run scores.

The question only applies if the OP is referencing the third out.
Of course the run counts if the batter/runner is tagged (or forced) for the first or second out.
Those are called sacrifices or fielder choices - about which there has never been a question.

[Quincy Varnish]

The run does NOT count. The batter-runner’s out removes the force after the runner crossed the plate, but the force was still active at the moment of crossing.

Opti

Exactly right.
Not complicated.
Rule is crystal clear.

The OP did not mention there were any outs. The rules and scenarios you are citing pertain to inning-ending plays. Provided the batters’ out does not end the inning, the run scores.

The question only applies if the OP is referencing the third out.
Of course the run counts if the batter/runner is tagged (or forced) for the first or second out.
Those are called sacrifices or fielder choices - about which there has never been a question.

It would not be a sacrifice or fielders choice. It’s just a groundout, 3u with a run scored.

[OldRed]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

I don't agree with that. If the run scores before the out I believe the run counts.

Example: the run will count if the runner crossed the plate before the out was recorded. For example, on April 28, 2007, the Indians recorded a double play by catching a fly ball and catching the runner off first base. The runner from third base had already crossed the plate (after tagging up properly), so the run counted.

I also remember a similar play in a Cardinals game years ago.

Not if it's the 3rd out of the inning OR

Of course the runs counts if it's only the 1st or 2nd out, but NOT if it's the 3rd out.

The rule is pretty simple, a runner can NOT RETREAT back towards home plate after hitting the ball.

If he does, he's immediately ruled out and the run is not allowed.

Play: With two out and one on (R2) in the top of the 3rd inning of the Cubs-Pirates game, batter Baez hit a 0-2 fastball from Pirates pitcher Tyler Anderson on the ground to third baseman Erik Gonzalez, who threw to first baseman Will Craig as baserunner R2 Contreras ran toward and rounded third base. When Craig stepped off of first base and down the line toward home plate to receive Gonzalez's throw, batter-runner Baez began retreating toward home plate with Craig in pursuit and Contreras still advancing toward home as well. Baez and Contreras arrived at the dirt circle surrounding home plate at around the same time, and Craig opted to throw to catcher Michael Perez to attempt to retire Contreras, whom Additon declared safe. Perez then threw wildly to first base and Baez took second base on the fielder's choice + error.

Different scenario.

In the original post once the hitter becomes a baserunner he's NOT ALLOWED to retreat back toward home plate and is automatically out.

A runner can retreat back towards home unless he touches the plate. Yes, it is allowed. He is not automatically out.

Yea I amended my other post after you replied.

I started to recall hitter/runners back peddling towards the plate being chased and tagged out.

Again, now I'm confused but I still don't think the run counts if it's the 3rd out.

Who knows.

I do.
Because the language of the rule is very clear and specific on this point.

So you are saying Baez would have been out if the second baseman caught the ball and the run would have not scored?

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r ... &FORM=VIRE

[CCard]

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r ... &FORM=VIRE

Yep, my only concern would be if they fielded the ball cleanly at first and recorded the "force out" would it negate the run coming across the plate?

[ScotchMIrish]

It's a force play whether the fielder tags the baserunner or steps on the bag. Run doesn't count.

[spfldan]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

former umpire: rockon got it right

[OldRed]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

former umpire: rockon got it right

Not true. I proved it earlier with the link I provided.

tps://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvi ... &FORM=VIRE

[RamFan08NY]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

I don't agree with that. If the run scores before the out I believe the run counts.

Example: the run will count if the runner crossed the plate before the out was recorded. For example, on April 28, 2007, the Indians recorded a double play by catching a fly ball and catching the runner off first base. The runner from third base had already crossed the plate (after tagging up properly), so the run counted.

I also remember a similar play in a Cardinals game years ago.

Not if it's the 3rd out of the inning OR

Of course the runs counts if it's only the 1st or 2nd out, but NOT if it's the 3rd out.

The rule is pretty simple, a runner can NOT RETREAT back towards home plate after hitting the ball.

If he does, he's immediately ruled out and the run is not allowed.

Wrong. If you remember the Cubs/ pirate fiasco of 2 years ago. The runner stopped halfway between 1st, and started back towards the plate on a little roller to 1b. The 1b stupidly started chasing him towards home, a runner crossed home plate, and then the 1b turned and threw to first, where nobody was covering. The runner successfully reached first and the run counted.

If a hitter does not reach first base it does not matter if a runner crosses the plate before hand. The run does not count if the batter does not reach first.

Case in point. Runner on third, hitter hits a ball in the gap, run scores, hitter ends up on second with apparent double. The defense appeals first base saying that the batter missed first. He is called out for missing first base, run does not count.

[sikeston bulldog2]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

I don't agree with that. If the run scores before the out I believe the run counts.

Example: the run will count if the runner crossed the plate before the out was recorded. For example, on April 28, 2007, the Indians recorded a double play by catching a fly ball and catching the runner off first base. The runner from third base had already crossed the plate (after tagging up properly), so the run counted.

I also remember a similar play in a Cardinals game years ago.

Not if it's the 3rd out of the inning OR

Of course the runs counts if it's only the 1st or 2nd out, but NOT if it's the 3rd out.

The rule is pretty simple, a runner can NOT RETREAT back towards home plate after hitting the ball.

If he does, he's immediately ruled out and the run is not allowed.

Wrong. If you remember the Cubs/ pirate fiasco of 2 years ago. The runner stopped halfway between 1st, and started back towards the plate on a little roller to 1b. The 1b stupidly started chasing him towards home, a runner crossed home plate, and then the 1b turned and threw to first, where nobody was covering. The runner successfully reached first and the run counted.

If a hitter does not reach first base it does not matter if a runner crosses the plate before hand. The run does not count if the batter does not reach first.

Case in point. Runner on third, hitter hits a ball in the gap, run scores, hitter ends up on second with apparent double. The defense appeals first base saying that the batter missed first. He is called out for missing first base, run does not count.

The key sentence to me is - if the hitter is out at first, the run won’t count. No matter how they get the out.

[rockondlouie]

The situation of a the bases loaded and the batter taps the ball up the first base line. The pitcher gets to the ball and instead of throwing it to first he turns and chases the batter back toward home. Before the batter is tagged out the runner from third crosses the plate. Does the run score? I assumed it would be considered a force out but AI from a search said that it's considered a "tag" play and not a force out. It almost happened last night and it occurred to me that I really didn't know. So, experts here, let me know.

The hitter/runner would be automatically out if he retreats back towards home plate, he's not allowed to do that.

No run if the hitter who retreated back towards home plate is the third out.

I don't agree with that. If the run scores before the out I believe the run counts.

Example: the run will count if the runner crossed the plate before the out was recorded. For example, on April 28, 2007, the Indians recorded a double play by catching a fly ball and catching the runner off first base. The runner from third base had already crossed the plate (after tagging up properly), so the run counted.

I also remember a similar play in a Cardinals game years ago.

Not if it's the 3rd out of the inning OR

Of course the runs counts if it's only the 1st or 2nd out, but NOT if it's the 3rd out.

The rule is pretty simple, a runner can NOT RETREAT back towards home plate after hitting the ball.

If he does, he's immediately ruled out and the run is not allowed.

Wrong. If you remember the Cubs/ pirate fiasco of 2 years ago. The runner stopped halfway between 1st, and started back towards the plate on a little roller to 1b. The 1b stupidly started chasing him towards home, a runner crossed home plate, and then the 1b turned and threw to first, where nobody was covering. The runner successfully reached first and the run counted.

yea I corrected that multiple times.

In your Cubs example the run counted because THE HITTER/RUNNER WAS SAFE at first!