Have we have transitioned from

[CorneliusWolfe]

BDWJr = Baseball Man

BDWIII aka Fredo = Business Man

BDWJr knows baseball front & back, Fredo only seems interested in the business side and lacks his fathers enthusiasm for the game.

BDWJr loves baseball ala ABJr.

BDWIII aka Fredo reminds me of ABIII who had no interest in the Cardinals or baseball.

I'd bet anyone BDWIII sells the team after Big Bill leaves this world.

I agree with everything except maybe the last one. If he’s making a modest profit regardless if the team is a joke, he’ll probably still hold and collect.

You hit the nail on the head in the comparison between Jr and the III though.

Melville might be a controversial poster, but when he said the Cardinals have become a marketing company with a baseball department, it is 100% accurate and directly attributed to BDWIII.

Well if they are a marketing company they are awful at it

They must’ve overlooked that if the team sucks too bad fans might actually become ashamed of the brand.

[CorneliusWolfe]

I don’t understand why so many think a rebuild can’t include spending and trading in concurrence with the revamping of player development.

Because significant spending in baseball always involves making long term commitments. Significant veteran players are going to sign for, or carry with them, 3, 5, 7, 10+ year contracts.

If you are not ready to compete now (and the Cardinals aren't), why commit yourself to guys now who (1) you may not need or (2) may get significantly worse when you are ready to compete again in 3, 5, etc. years?

The holes we filled with experienced journeyman players from the Rasmus trade did not entail long term commitment. The Lackey trade did not hamstring our payroll for years on end. The Matt Holiday deal was not earth shattering expensive to a billionaire owner who had a loyal paying fanbase.

Why is spending always equated to decades-long monster mega deals? There is a sensible middle ground.

Journeyman players on short deals are not the solution for the current state of the team. If you don't have a solid base to start from, that just gets you to a lower grade of mediocre.

So the only choices are Ohtani-priced free agents or cheap useless [shirt] players?

[CorneliusWolfe]

The holes we filled with experienced journeyman players from the Rasmus trade did not entail long term commitment. The Lackey trade did not hamstring our payroll for years on end. The Matt Holiday deal was not earth shattering expensive to a billionaire owner who had a loyal paying fanbase.

Why is spending always equated to decades-long monster mega deals? There is a sensible middle ground.

You can understand the state of the team back in those years compared to now, right? They were drafting and developing well back in those days. Those teams were all pretty good teams that needed a piece here or there to put the, over the top.

We need to get back to that point to where moves like that make sense.

Why can’t the lottery ticket inexperienced prospects be the “pieces here or there”? I could understand if we had an inflated 220 million payroll and a 100-loss team to start with, but we don’t.

A good RH outfielder and two solid starters would create a situation where a Wetherholt, and some improvement from a few young players already on hand get us back in the mix.

[icon]

What is at great risk here -- and this was discussed at length in a previous thread -- is the fan apathy we have seen this year carrying over into who knows how many more years before the team can be close to competitive again.

Many fans who have found other things to do with their time and money may never return. In my social circle -- and I'm a baseball-loving Boomer -- I hear fewer and fewer people even mention the Cardinals anymore, and when they do, it's not positive. They are at risk of becoming irrelevant. I didn't watch many games this year on TV. And I didn't go to one. The team is boring with a play-not-to-lose manager. And good luck creating new fans.

[CorneliusWolfe]

I just…I….

It really surprises me how seemingly engaged baseball fans can’t understand the most modest of rebuilds and how this org obviously needs a reset.

I don’t understand why so many think a rebuild can’t include spending and trading in concurrence with the revamping of player development.

We can win faster with all wheels turning together. You don’t have to lose and lose and lose some more to eventually hopefully one day maybe build a winner again. You try your (donkey) off from every single angle every single year. If BDW isn’t fully committed to winning then he should sell the [fork]ing team to someone who cares.

Well, you can sign people, but you don't make 'win now' trades.

I wouldn’t sign any player that I don’t believe improves the winning percentage right now. This new weird expectation we go from big time losers to on-paper champions before we even dare to try and win makes no sense.

A team full of young players won’t win when integrated and conditioned in a losing environment. They need solid professionals to learn from and to push them into survival mode. They should feel the pressure to take those jobs and force their way into being a core player.

Too many young guys coming up and loitering and just happy to be here and aren’t contributing jack [shirt] to the legacy of this franchise. This youth movement isn’t going to work by itself so why wait?

Create that high competitive environment right now and guarantee them nothing and watch them play like their livelihood depends on it. Bet you won’t see hardheads not listening to the coaches and doing the same stupid [shirt] over and over again. That alone would equal 10+ wins.

[CorneliusWolfe]

What is at great risk here -- and this was discussed at length in a previous thread -- is the fan apathy we have seen this year carrying over into who knows how many more years before the team can be close to competitive again.

Many fans who have found other things to do with their time and money may never return. In my social circle -- and I'm a baseball-loving Boomer -- I hear fewer and fewer people even mention the Cardinals anymore, and when they do, it's not positive. They are at risk of becoming irrelevant. I didn't watch many games this year on TV. And I didn't go to one. The team is boring with a play-not-to-lose manager. And good luck creating new fans.

This is very true and happening. The game is supposed to be entertaining and fun to watch even if you don’t win it all.

The Reds might not have been good enough to go all the way, but neither were the Yankees, or the Brewers with the best record in baseball. But those Reds fans had a blast there for a few months while we watched meaningless baseball for a third straight year.

[82birds]

What is at great risk here -- and this was discussed at length in a previous thread -- is the fan apathy we have seen this year carrying over into who knows how many more years before the team can be close to competitive again.

Many fans who have found other things to do with their time and money may never return. In my social circle -- and I'm a baseball-loving Boomer -- I hear fewer and fewer people even mention the Cardinals anymore, and when they do, it's not positive. They are at risk of becoming irrelevant. I didn't watch many games this year on TV. And I didn't go to one. The team is boring with a play-not-to-lose manager. And good luck creating new fans.

stated very well, icon

[ecleme22]

I just…I….

It really surprises me how seemingly engaged baseball fans can’t understand the most modest of rebuilds and how this org obviously needs a reset.

I don’t understand why so many think a rebuild can’t include spending and trading in concurrence with the revamping of player development.

We can win faster with all wheels turning together. You don’t have to lose and lose and lose some more to eventually hopefully one day maybe build a winner again. You try your (donkey) off from every single angle every single year. If BDW isn’t fully committed to winning then he should sell the [fork]ing team to someone who cares.

Well, you can sign people, but you don't make 'win now' trades.

I wouldn’t sign any player that I don’t believe improves the winning percentage right now. This new weird expectation we go from big time losers to on-paper champions before we even dare to try and win makes no sense.

A team full of young players won’t win when integrated and conditioned in a losing environment. They need solid professionals to learn from and to push them into survival mode. They should feel the pressure to take those jobs and force their way into being a core player.

Too many young guys coming up and loitering and just happy to be here and aren’t contributing jack [shirt] to the legacy of this franchise. This youth movement isn’t going to work by itself so why wait?

Create that high competitive environment right now and guarantee them nothing and watch them play like their livelihood depends on it. Bet you won’t see hardheads not listening to the coaches and doing the same stupid [shirt] over and over again. That alone would equal 10+ wins.

Well of course you sign players to help you now. But they would be short term deals and flippable candidates.

[CorneliusWolfe]

I just…I….

It really surprises me how seemingly engaged baseball fans can’t understand the most modest of rebuilds and how this org obviously needs a reset.

I don’t understand why so many think a rebuild can’t include spending and trading in concurrence with the revamping of player development.

We can win faster with all wheels turning together. You don’t have to lose and lose and lose some more to eventually hopefully one day maybe build a winner again. You try your (donkey) off from every single angle every single year. If BDW isn’t fully committed to winning then he should sell the [fork]ing team to someone who cares.

Well, you can sign people, but you don't make 'win now' trades.

I wouldn’t sign any player that I don’t believe improves the winning percentage right now. This new weird expectation we go from big time losers to on-paper champions before we even dare to try and win makes no sense.

A team full of young players won’t win when integrated and conditioned in a losing environment. They need solid professionals to learn from and to push them into survival mode. They should feel the pressure to take those jobs and force their way into being a core player.

Too many young guys coming up and loitering and just happy to be here and aren’t contributing jack [shirt] to the legacy of this franchise. This youth movement isn’t going to work by itself so why wait?

Create that high competitive environment right now and guarantee them nothing and watch them play like their livelihood depends on it. Bet you won’t see hardheads not listening to the coaches and doing the same stupid [shirt] over and over again. That alone would equal 10+ wins.

Well of course you sign players to help you now. But they would be short term deals and flippable candidates.

“Flippable” infers value, I can get behind that. It means the player can actually hold his own and do his part on a contender, and if the team fails to contend, there is return value so long as he’s indeed a solid productive player. Not saying MVP candidate, but a good experienced professional, like Maton and Kittredge were out of the bullpen recently.

I think too many misinterpret that I want to sign either 10 year mega deal guys or scrubs.

[mattmitchl44]

What is at great risk here -- and this was discussed at length in a previous thread -- is the fan apathy we have seen this year carrying over into who knows how many more years before the team can be close to competitive again.

Many fans who have found other things to do with their time and money may never return. In my social circle -- and I'm a baseball-loving Boomer -- I hear fewer and fewer people even mention the Cardinals anymore, and when they do, it's not positive. They are at risk of becoming irrelevant. I didn't watch many games this year on TV. And I didn't go to one. The team is boring with a play-not-to-lose manager. And good luck creating new fans.

If you look at the history of Cardinals' attendance:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/

show me where there is any trend of Cardinals fans becoming spitefully apathetic when the organization returns to being successful after any "down" period.

When the Cardinals lost the WS in 1987, they drew 3.1 million fans.

From 1988 to 1999, the Cardinals went more than a decade while making the playoffs only once. But they still averaged 2.7 million in attendance per 162 game season.

Then, starting in 2000, then they started making the playoffs again, attendance bounced back up to 3.3, 3.1, 3.0, 2.9, 3.0, 3.5, 3.4, 3.6, etc. million.

If Cardinals fans can't weather a "down" period, then there isn't much hope for this organization long term anyway.

[rockondlouie]

show me where there is any trend of Cardinals fans becoming spitefully apathetic when the organization returns to being successful after any "down" period.

1969 - 1981

The Cardinals never averaged more than 22,xxx fans per game despite finishing 2nd three times, over .500 seven times (.500 one season).

Even after winning 90 games in 1971 attendance never averaged even 20,000 per game and FELL the next season to 15,5xx per game!

The 1974 team won 86 games only to see attendance drop into the 14,xxx per game range in 1976.

The ONLY thing that broke the thirteen season string of terrible attendance and fan apathy was the hiring of Whitey Herzog in 1980.

By 1982 Whitey Ball had attendance back over 2+M, reaching 3+M for the first time in 1987.

[mattmitchl44]

show me where there is any trend of Cardinals fans becoming spitefully apathetic when the organization returns to being successful after any "down" period.

1969 - 1981

The Cardinals never averaged more than 22,xxx fans per game despite finishing 2nd three times, over .500 seven times (.500 one season).

Even after winning 90 games in 1971 attendance never averaged even 20,000 per game and FELL the next season to 15,5xx per game!

The 1974 team won 86 games only to see attendance drop into the 14,xxx per game range in 1976.

The ONLY thing that broke the thirteen season string of terrible attendance and fan apathy was the hiring of Whitey Herzog in 1980.

By 1982 Whitey Ball had attendance back over 2+M, reaching 3+M for the first time in 1987.

In 1967-1968, they had attendance of 2.0-2.1 million.

They missed the playoffs every year from 1969-1981 and still averaged 1.6 million per 162 game season.

In 1982, when they won the WS, they jumped right back to 2.1 million, and then went 2.3, 2.0, 2.6, 2.5, etc. million per year after that.

Resiliency.

[rockondlouie]

show me where there is any trend of Cardinals fans becoming spitefully apathetic when the organization returns to being successful after any "down" period.

1969 - 1981

The Cardinals never averaged more than 22,xxx fans per game despite finishing 2nd three times, over .500 seven times (.500 one season).

Even after winning 90 games in 1971 attendance never averaged even 20,000 per game and FELL the next season to 15,5xx per game!

The 1974 team won 86 games only to see attendance drop into the 14,xxx per game range in 1976.

The ONLY thing that broke the thirteen season string of terrible attendance and fan apathy was the hiring of Whitey Herzog in 1980.

By 1982 Whitey Ball had attendance back over 2+M, reaching 3+M for the first time in 1987.

In 1967-1968, they had attendance of 2.0-2.1 million.

They missed the playoffs every year from 1969-1981 and still averaged 1.6 million per 162 game season.

In 1982, when they won the WS, they jumped right back to 2.1 million, and then went 2.3, 2.0, 2.6, 2.5, etc. million per year after that.

Resiliency.

67'/68' were World Series seasons.

Are you seriously claiming averaging a putrid 1.6M from 1969 - 1981 is something to be proud of?

That was one of the most fan apathetic stretches of Cardinals baseball we've since in the expansion era!

You must not have lived here during that time frame matt since anyone who did can tell you the stadium was more than half empty most games!

[mattmitchl44]

show me where there is any trend of Cardinals fans becoming spitefully apathetic when the organization returns to being successful after any "down" period.

1969 - 1981

The Cardinals never averaged more than 22,xxx fans per game despite finishing 2nd three times, over .500 seven times (.500 one season).

Even after winning 90 games in 1971 attendance never averaged even 20,000 per game and FELL the next season to 15,5xx per game!

The 1974 team won 86 games only to see attendance drop into the 14,xxx per game range in 1976.

The ONLY thing that broke the thirteen season string of terrible attendance and fan apathy was the hiring of Whitey Herzog in 1980.

By 1982 Whitey Ball had attendance back over 2+M, reaching 3+M for the first time in 1987.

In 1967-1968, they had attendance of 2.0-2.1 million.

They missed the playoffs every year from 1969-1981 and still averaged 1.6 million per 162 game season.

In 1982, when they won the WS, they jumped right back to 2.1 million, and then went 2.3, 2.0, 2.6, 2.5, etc. million per year after that.

Resiliency.

67'/68' were World Series seasons.

Are you seriously claiming averaging a putrid 1.6M from 1969 - 1981 is something to be proud of?

That was one of the most fan apathetic stretches of Cardinals baseball we've since in the expansion era!

You must not have lived here during that time frame matt since anyone who did can tell you the stadium was more than half empty most games!

They had gone to the WS three times in five years between 1964 and 1968 and were still only drawing 2.0 - 2.1 million in 1967-1968.

Averaging 1.6 million over a long 13 years from 1969 to 1981 isn't that much off of a high water mark of 2.0 - 2.1 million.

[rockondlouie]

show me where there is any trend of Cardinals fans becoming spitefully apathetic when the organization returns to being successful after any "down" period.

1969 - 1981

The Cardinals never averaged more than 22,xxx fans per game despite finishing 2nd three times, over .500 seven times (.500 one season).

Even after winning 90 games in 1971 attendance never averaged even 20,000 per game and FELL the next season to 15,5xx per game!

The 1974 team won 86 games only to see attendance drop into the 14,xxx per game range in 1976.

The ONLY thing that broke the thirteen season string of terrible attendance and fan apathy was the hiring of Whitey Herzog in 1980.

By 1982 Whitey Ball had attendance back over 2+M, reaching 3+M for the first time in 1987.

In 1967-1968, they had attendance of 2.0-2.1 million.

They missed the playoffs every year from 1969-1981 and still averaged 1.6 million per 162 game season.

In 1982, when they won the WS, they jumped right back to 2.1 million, and then went 2.3, 2.0, 2.6, 2.5, etc. million per year after that.

Resiliency.

67'/68' were World Series seasons.

Are you seriously claiming averaging a putrid 1.6M from 1969 - 1981 is something to be proud of?

That was one of the most fan apathetic stretches of Cardinals baseball we've since in the expansion era!

You must not have lived here during that time frame matt since anyone who did can tell you the stadium was more than half empty most games!

They had gone to the WS three times in five years between 1964 and 1968 and were still only drawing 2.0 - 2.1 million in 1967-1968.

Averaging 1.6 million over a long 13 years from 1969 to 1981 isn't that much off of a high water mark of 2.0 - 2.1 million.

Trust me matt, the 1970's were as apathetic a time frame as this city has ever seen.

(BTW, that 1.6M average is a near 20% decline in attendance from the 2.01M/2.09M they drew in 1967-1968. That's a huge drop of over 400,000 customers!)

Now that MO's gone I don't foresee us falling much further, I actually think the 2026 team will be better than the 2025 model which should stabilize attendance.

[mattmitchl44]

show me where there is any trend of Cardinals fans becoming spitefully apathetic when the organization returns to being successful after any "down" period.

1969 - 1981

The Cardinals never averaged more than 22,xxx fans per game despite finishing 2nd three times, over .500 seven times (.500 one season).

Even after winning 90 games in 1971 attendance never averaged even 20,000 per game and FELL the next season to 15,5xx per game!

The 1974 team won 86 games only to see attendance drop into the 14,xxx per game range in 1976.

The ONLY thing that broke the thirteen season string of terrible attendance and fan apathy was the hiring of Whitey Herzog in 1980.

By 1982 Whitey Ball had attendance back over 2+M, reaching 3+M for the first time in 1987.

In 1967-1968, they had attendance of 2.0-2.1 million.

They missed the playoffs every year from 1969-1981 and still averaged 1.6 million per 162 game season.

In 1982, when they won the WS, they jumped right back to 2.1 million, and then went 2.3, 2.0, 2.6, 2.5, etc. million per year after that.

Resiliency.

67'/68' were World Series seasons.

Are you seriously claiming averaging a putrid 1.6M from 1969 - 1981 is something to be proud of?

That was one of the most fan apathetic stretches of Cardinals baseball we've since in the expansion era!

You must not have lived here during that time frame matt since anyone who did can tell you the stadium was more than half empty most games!

They had gone to the WS three times in five years between 1964 and 1968 and were still only drawing 2.0 - 2.1 million in 1967-1968.

Averaging 1.6 million over a long 13 years from 1969 to 1981 isn't that much off of a high water mark of 2.0 - 2.1 million.

Trust me matt, the 1970's were as apathetic a time frame as this city has ever seen.

(BTW, that 1.6M average is a near 20% decline in attendance from the 2.01M/2.09M they drew in 1967-1968. That's a huge drop of over 400,000 customers!)

Now that MO's gone I don't foresee us falling much further, I actually think the 2026 team will be better than the 2025 model which should stabilize attendance.

Over 13 seasons of not making the playoffs, if fans weren't resilient, you might expect a 33% to 50% drop off, not 20%.