Hate to think this but we aren't far from Royals territory

[ScotchMIrish]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

[CCard]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

That's the danger of tanking. A tremendous amount of losing for a chance to win after years in the hole.

[Ozziesfan41]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

I’m glad they are getting rid of the finishing over .500 is a good season and want to build a team that can actually win something instead of being dumb holding onto players so they can be one and done in the post season

[2ninr]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

I’m glad they are getting rid of the finishing over .500 is a good season and want to build a team that can actually win something instead of being dumb holding onto players so they can be one and done in the post season

That team last year stunk. The BEST you could have done was get them in a road wildcard series you aren't going to win. Than the rentals you traded for are not going to be signed as free agents and you've lost the equity you gave up in prospects. And that’s what it would have been. They aren't taking our junk for those rentals.

[ScotchMIrish]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

I’m glad they are getting rid of the finishing over .500 is a good season and want to build a team that can actually win something instead of being dumb holding onto players so they can be one and done in the post season

Great if it works but teams like the Pirates have been trying to do that for decades. There is a 2006 world series banner at Busch Stadium for a team that was 5 games over .500 for the season. They won the world series because you don't need more than 3 starting pitchers in the playoffs. First you make the playoffs. Then you win.

Royals went 29 years with no playoffs. 2 consecutive world series. Dump and rebuild another 9 years before they had a winning record.

[C-Unit]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

That's the danger of tanking. A tremendous amount of losing for a chance to win after years in the hole.

True but the damage has been done not by tanking but by poor performance. I'll add the caveat that Bloom has not stated "tanking" to be the specific method going forward, to me it sounds like organizational improvement which can go a lot of ways. Of course, it'll take 1-2 years minimum to start seeing the franchise get back to where we expect it. And that's assuming it goes right. There's a lot of talent to develop in a short time if they expect to cover a 26-man roster for a 162 game season.

The underlying point to this is that in terms of market alone, there isn't much that seperates St. Louis from Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Detroit... Kansas City... etc. St Louis had a loyal fanbase and a recent dynasty (which can be attributed to leadership/management but also some luck) that helped them standout for some time. But, let's not act like those other central division franchises never had periods of success in their history either. The Cardinals seem to have gotten complacent and been passed up by some of those other clubs in certain cutting edge areas that Mo turned his nose up at during the final 10 years of his tenure.

What really kicked off the dynasty we saw in the 2000s was bringing in McGwire who was essentially the focal point of baseball at the time we acquired him. Think about what the equivalent of that is in today's game. They had the benefit of having McGwire's former manager here perhaps as a benefit to McGwire.

We will need to develop the organization to the point that we can again justify having a top level championship pedigree manager who can attract a top level star to St Louis, to coincide with the talent we've already developed. That was the recipe last time around, it's easier said than done.

[C-Unit]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

Yeah, you have a point. For the most part, if you get in you have a chance and with expanded playoffs it should be a bit easier to set your sights on a playoff spot, and less tempting to go the other way.

But a competitive roster needs to be geared towards winning 90-94 games year in year out. Not 83-85. Anything happens if you get in, yes. But there is still a difference between a 94-win team and a 85, the main difference being that you aren't entirely counting on luck to carry you (just to make the playoff spot, even).

[Swuhgen]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

Some act like the franchise has never gone through a “thin” period or a rebuild. It’s not some indication they are doomed for decades. It’s pretty ridiculous.

[ScotchMIrish]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

Yeah, you have a point. For the most part, if you get in you have a chance and with expanded playoffs it should be a bit easier to set your sights on a playoff spot, and less tempting to go the other way.

But a competitive roster needs to be geared towards winning 90-94 games year in year out. Not 83-85. Anything happens if you get in, yes. But there is still a difference between a 94-win team and a 85, the main difference being that you aren't entirely counting on luck to carry you (just to make the playoff spot, even).

The 2006 team was 5 games over .500.

My point for starting this thread is this isn't easy. We aren't going to be the Dodgers winning 90+ games every year. Revenue is down significantly.

[CorneliusWolfe]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

I’m glad they are getting rid of the finishing over .500 is a good season and want to build a team that can actually win something instead of being dumb holding onto players so they can be one and done in the post season

That team last year stunk. The BEST you could have done was get them in a road wildcard series you aren't going to win. Than the rentals you traded for are not going to be signed as free agents and you've lost the equity you gave up in prospects. And that’s what it would have been. They aren't taking our junk for those rentals.

I think they *might’ve* caught the Reds with just standing pat, not buying any rentals. But they would’ve only gone as far as the Reds, so I didn’t mind the sell off as to not get stuck with no return for expiring deals. Cards actually looked pretty good the first few months. Had they made a few bold and early moves they might’ve put something together. But near impossible to make transformational moves early in the season.

[Ozziesfan41]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

I’m glad they are getting rid of the finishing over .500 is a good season and want to build a team that can actually win something instead of being dumb holding onto players so they can be one and done in the post season

That team last year stunk. The BEST you could have done was get them in a road wildcard series you aren't going to win. Than the rentals you traded for are not going to be signed as free agents and you've lost the equity you gave up in prospects. And that’s what it would have been. They aren't taking our junk for those rentals.

I think they *might’ve* caught the Reds with just standing pat, not buying any rentals. But they would’ve only gone as far as the Reds, so I didn’t mind the sell off as to not get stuck with no return for expiring deals. Cards actually looked pretty good the first few months. Had they made a few bold and early moves they might’ve put something together. But near impossible to make transformational moves early in the season.

Yea but if the cards stood pat and didn’t trade helsley to the Mets their collapse wouldn’t have been as bad and they would have won it instead of the reds or cardinals. Cardinals wouldn’t have been much if any better keeping them because the bullpen wasn’t what hurt them the rest of the way it was a strength and they could have been worse with helsley as the closer still

[CorneliusWolfe]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

I’m glad they are getting rid of the finishing over .500 is a good season and want to build a team that can actually win something instead of being dumb holding onto players so they can be one and done in the post season

That team last year stunk. The BEST you could have done was get them in a road wildcard series you aren't going to win. Than the rentals you traded for are not going to be signed as free agents and you've lost the equity you gave up in prospects. And that’s what it would have been. They aren't taking our junk for those rentals.

I think they *might’ve* caught the Reds with just standing pat, not buying any rentals. But they would’ve only gone as far as the Reds, so I didn’t mind the sell off as to not get stuck with no return for expiring deals. Cards actually looked pretty good the first few months. Had they made a few bold and early moves they might’ve put something together. But near impossible to make transformational moves early in the season.

Yea but if the cards stood pat and didn’t trade helsley to the Mets their collapse wouldn’t have been as bad and they would have won it instead of the reds or cardinals. Cardinals wouldn’t have been much if any better keeping them because the bullpen wasn’t what hurt them the rest of the way it was a strength and they could have been worse with helsley as the closer still

Fair point. Helsley hurt them so bad they would’ve surely been better off without him. I know he has shaky with us this year, but still had a 3.00 ERA and 21 saves at the time of the trade. Did he just hate NY that bad? Injured? Weird situation.

[C-Unit]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

Yeah, you have a point. For the most part, if you get in you have a chance and with expanded playoffs it should be a bit easier to set your sights on a playoff spot, and less tempting to go the other way.

But a competitive roster needs to be geared towards winning 90-94 games year in year out. Not 83-85. Anything happens if you get in, yes. But there is still a difference between a 94-win team and a 85, the main difference being that you aren't entirely counting on luck to carry you (just to make the playoff spot, even).

The 2006 team was 5 games over .500.

My point for starting this thread is this isn't easy. We aren't going to be the Dodgers winning 90+ games every year. Revenue is down significantly.

Yeah but the 2006 team was on the low end for the win totals of all the teams we had around that era. Nowadays, that's about what our target seems to be.

You're right the path ahead is tough. But you have to get back to being a consistent 90-94 win team if you want to call yourself a team with a chance to win it all.

Cleveland has won 90+ games 6 times since 2016 (and 35-25 in the covid year).

And then we know about Milwaukee, they've won 90+ games 5 times since 2018.

So yes its hard but those are two examples of teams that can do it without revenues in their favor. We can also circle teams with higher revenues who spend poorly and don't get bang for their buck, and end up with disappointing teams.

So it can be done. If Bloom/Cerfolio are successful with what they are setting out to do, we should be seeing a better organization. And, Cerfolio came from that Cleveland system that has been so good.

[Ozziesfan41]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

Yeah, you have a point. For the most part, if you get in you have a chance and with expanded playoffs it should be a bit easier to set your sights on a playoff spot, and less tempting to go the other way.

But a competitive roster needs to be geared towards winning 90-94 games year in year out. Not 83-85. Anything happens if you get in, yes. But there is still a difference between a 94-win team and a 85, the main difference being that you aren't entirely counting on luck to carry you (just to make the playoff spot, even).

The 2006 team was 5 games over .500.

My point for starting this thread is this isn't easy. We aren't going to be the Dodgers winning 90+ games every year. Revenue is down significantly.

Yeah but the 2006 team was on the low end for the win totals of all the teams we had around that era. Nowadays, that's about what our target seems to be.

You're right the path ahead is tough. But you have to get back to being a consistent 90-94 win team if you want to call yourself a team with a chance to win it all.

Cleveland has won 90+ games 6 times since 2016 (and 35-25 in the covid year).

And then we know about Milwaukee, they've won 90+ games 5 times since 2018.

So yes its hard but those are two examples of teams that can do it without revenues in their favor. We can also circle teams with higher revenues who spend poorly and don't get bang for their buck, and end up with disappointing teams.

So it can be done. If Bloom/Cerfolio are successful with what they are setting out to do, we should be seeing a better organization. And, Cerfolio came from that Cleveland system that has been so good.

The 2006 team was on the low end of wins total because of injuries not because of lack of talent they got healthy at the right time. That’s what makes the argument of the 2006 team being an example of the just get in and anything can happen so dumb

[ScotchMIrish]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

Yeah, you have a point. For the most part, if you get in you have a chance and with expanded playoffs it should be a bit easier to set your sights on a playoff spot, and less tempting to go the other way.

But a competitive roster needs to be geared towards winning 90-94 games year in year out. Not 83-85. Anything happens if you get in, yes. But there is still a difference between a 94-win team and a 85, the main difference being that you aren't entirely counting on luck to carry you (just to make the playoff spot, even).

The 2006 team was 5 games over .500.

My point for starting this thread is this isn't easy. We aren't going to be the Dodgers winning 90+ games every year. Revenue is down significantly.

Yeah but the 2006 team was on the low end for the win totals of all the teams we had around that era. Nowadays, that's about what our target seems to be.

You're right the path ahead is tough. But you have to get back to being a consistent 90-94 win team if you want to call yourself a team with a chance to win it all.

Cleveland has won 90+ games 6 times since 2016 (and 35-25 in the covid year).

And then we know about Milwaukee, they've won 90+ games 5 times since 2018.

So yes its hard but those are two examples of teams that can do it without revenues in their favor. We can also circle teams with higher revenues who spend poorly and don't get bang for their buck, and end up with disappointing teams.

So it can be done. If Bloom/Cerfolio are successful with what they are setting out to do, we should be seeing a better organization. And, Cerfolio came from that Cleveland system that has been so good.

It will be interesting to see what happens but I think people who say we should dump when 5 games over .500 at the all star break are not realizing the reality of the financial situation we are in. That isn't to say we should trade good prospects but don't dump when there is a legit chance of postseason.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

We averaged 5,917 more fans per game this season. After the 1985 debacle they didn't make the postseason for 29 years. Won a WS in 2015 and within 3 season lost 104 games. Took them 9 seasons after the WS to post a winning record.

We have to get rid of the mentality of 5 games over .500 at the all star break is an automatic sell off like we did this season.

This team isn't as good as KC right now. And probably not next year if they stay the course to a full rebuild aiming at 2027. But there is a difference between STL and KC. Once STL has a functioning farm system again and that investment produces results then they should have the fan base and larger TV revenues to allow them to spend more than KC.

The rational fans on this forum understand what has to happen to see a team challenge for a WS title again. We can not compete with the big market teams spending money. No chance of having a payroll remotely close to LAD or NYY. We have to have a better farm system producing results AND spend what we do have the right way.

When the farm starts sending quality talent up it will be time to spend again. I believe if they market appropriately this team has the fan/market base to allow them to spend near $200mil on major league salaries. I don't KNOW this but gut tells me the size and history of baseball in STL should generate revenues supporting that. So in 2027 when we have shaken out a few higher end controlled talents then it will be time to supplement with free agents.

Bummer some here want instant gratification. Can't help them cause they won't get it even if STL spent like they want. The core is lacking.