What have been the Cards biggest blunders?

[mattmitchl44]

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

It will depend on how this FO group evaluates them, but if they are as high on Wetherholt and Doyle as a lot of people in the industry are, they should be approaching them with 8 year deals right before they are called up. Lock them up until they are 30, 31, etc.

If you can get an 8 year deal done for $70, $80, $90 million, do it. If the player and their agent want $150 million, you likely don't do it. But there is always a price point at which it makes sense from a risk-reward standpoint for the team to get a deal done.

Not every one of such deals will work out as well as the team might want, but then many expensive veteran FA signings don't work out as well as the teams want. And, even if they fail, these relatively little $70, $80, etc. million deals hurt teams a lot less than $150, $200, $250 million FA signings that bomb.

[2ninr]

Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

The pool of super stars in ML baseball is shallow and drought stricken. Either they are tied up in a monster contract, or tradeable, but we don’t have players to compete.

We’ve allowed ourselves to slip a bit in team talent, you know, the role players, and have found it’s quite difficult to build a team with role players as your core.

What up Dog. Yea I get that, and agree. But it's possible. First step to recovery is admiting theres a problem. And we have done that. Our roster construction is a total disaster. We are counting on Bloom to fix that. Mo built it and seemed unwilling to admit it was fubar. I think we will have a lot more clarity by opening day.

[2ninr]

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

It will depend on how this FO group evaluates them, but if they are as high on Wetherholt and Doyle as a lot of people in the industry are, they should be approaching them with 8 year deals right before they are called up. Lock them up until they are 30, 31, etc.

If you can get an 8 year deal done for $70, $80, $90 million, do it. If the player and their agent want $150 million, you likely don't do it. But there is always a price point at which it makes sense from a risk-reward standpoint for the team to get a deal done.

Not every one of such deals will work out as well as the team might want, but then many expensive veteran FA signings don't work out as well as the teams want. And, even if they fail, these relatively little $70, $80, etc. million deals hurt teams a lot less than $150, $200, $250 million FA signings that bomb.

I agree 100%. We just have to believe in the process and learn to live with the misses. As you say, they aren't near as bad as fast misses.

[2ninr]

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

It will depend on how this FO group evaluates them, but if they are as high on Wetherholt and Doyle as a lot of people in the industry are, they should be approaching them with 8 year deals right before they are called up. Lock them up until they are 30, 31, etc.

If you can get an 8 year deal done for $70, $80, $90 million, do it. If the player and their agent want $150 million, you likely don't do it. But there is always a price point at which it makes sense from a risk-reward standpoint for the team to get a deal done.

Not every one of such deals will work out as well as the team might want, but then many expensive veteran FA signings don't work out as well as the teams want. And, even if they fail, these relatively little $70, $80, etc. million deals hurt teams a lot less than $150, $200, $250 million FA signings that bomb.

I agree 100%. We just have to believe in the process and learn to live with the misses. As you say, they aren't near as bad as fa misses.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

The pool of super stars in ML baseball is shallow and drought stricken. Either they are tied up in a monster contract, or tradeable, but we don’t have players to compete.

We’ve allowed ourselves to slip a bit in team talent, you know, the role players, and have found it’s quite difficult to build a team with role players as your core.

What up Dog. Yea I get that, and agree. But it's possible. First step to recovery is admiting theres a problem. And we have done that. Our roster construction is a total disaster. We are counting on Bloom to fix that. Mo built it and seemed unwilling to admit it was fubar. I think we will have a lot more clarity by opening day.

Good morning sir. I feel we slippped in all areas- farm trade FA. Once we got behind, to where we are now, we thought we’d just fill in the blank by number team.

Once we got behind, we now realize also the replacement pool is weak. Uh oh.

[cardiological]

This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

Agree 100%. With that rotation, Cincinnati, the Big Red Machine of the 70’s, would have been just another team left in the Cardinals dust. I understand Bing Devine was a very nice man but he and Gussie Busch destroyed the franchise during that decade.

[2ninr]

Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

The pool of super stars in ML baseball is shallow and drought stricken. Either they are tied up in a monster contract, or tradeable, but we don’t have players to compete.

We’ve allowed ourselves to slip a bit in team talent, you know, the role players, and have found it’s quite difficult to build a team with role players as your core.

What up Dog. Yea I get that, and agree. But it's possible. First step to recovery is admiting theres a problem. And we have done that. Our roster construction is a total disaster. We are counting on Bloom to fix that. Mo built it and seemed unwilling to admit it was fubar. I think we will have a lot more clarity by opening day.

Good morning sir. I feel we slippped in all areas- farm trade FA. Once we got behind, to where we are now, we thought we’d just fill in the blank by number team.

Once we got behind, we now realize also the replacement pool is weak. Uh oh.

It can't be fixed with the amount of $ we can spend on payroll. It's bigger than that. Mo found out.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

The pool of super stars in ML baseball is shallow and drought stricken. Either they are tied up in a monster contract, or tradeable, but we don’t have players to compete.

We’ve allowed ourselves to slip a bit in team talent, you know, the role players, and have found it’s quite difficult to build a team with role players as your core.

What up Dog. Yea I get that, and agree. But it's possible. First step to recovery is admiting theres a problem. And we have done that. Our roster construction is a total disaster. We are counting on Bloom to fix that. Mo built it and seemed unwilling to admit it was fubar. I think we will have a lot more clarity by opening day.

Good morning sir. I feel we slippped in all areas- farm trade FA. Once we got behind, to where we are now, we thought we’d just fill in the blank by number team.

Once we got behind, we now realize also the replacement pool is weak. Uh oh.

It can't be fixed with the amount of $ we can spend on payroll. It's bigger than that. Mo found out.

We enter a crawl walk run era of team building.

[Voldemort]

Vern Rapp

[Youboughtit]

Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

Winn won’t be expensive because he has no power. He’s a $15-$20m per year player. Wetherholt/ Doyle maybe but that’s 3 players. Legit WS contenders have multiple all star player pitching and hitters. Draft and develop only will never win. Adding elite FA is how all teams compete. Look at the Brewers they are more than 50% trade and FA

[rockondlouie]

This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

I'm an old dude so remember. If memory serves me, they lost Carlton over $10,000. Gibby made $100,000/year and Carlton wanted $10,000 more than the $90,000 the Cards offerred. Club said no one makes Gibby money..... Scipio Spinks was said to be able to throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Then, he blew out his arm and it was over before it started. I don't think Torrez was a particularly hot prospect for the Cards. Then the Yankees got him and he became a stud.

Jose Cruz to the Astros and Andy VanSlyke to the Pirates were lousey trades too.

Even worse HouCard, it was over $5,000!

T. McCarver once told the story that Lefty was driving down Hwy 40 to sign the deal when he heard on KMOX he'd been dealt to the Phillies.

According to the research I did, it was $10K, as I posted above. As much as we complain about the Dewitt's, this was far worse. Not only that, without the ability to sign free agents, as posted throughout this thread, they also dealt, Reuss, Cuellar and Torres in addition to Carlton. So my formative years as a Cardinal fan could have potentially had 1-2 WS appearances instead of a complete blackout, all due to ownership stubborness. In my view, this was far worse than what MO and the Dewitts did over the last 5 years.

No it was $5,000, I heard the story straight McCarver who was Carlton's best friend.


The St. Louis Cardinals traded pitcher Steve Carlton to the Philadelphia Phillies in February 1972 for pitcher Rick Wise because of a $5,000 salary dispute. Carlton asked for $65,000, but the Cardinals, led by owner Gussie Busch, offered him \(\$60,000\). The dispute led to the team trading him to the Phillies.   T

The Salary Dispute: Carlton and Cardinals owner Gussie Busch famously clashed over a $5,000 difference in their contract negotiation.

I remember it as $5000. I also remember the years before his walk year he was something like 10-19. I was at a game where he was struggling and he was booed unmercifully. Next year he won 20 games and ABjr wouldn't bend over $5000.

[rockondlouie]

This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

I'm an old dude so remember. If memory serves me, they lost Carlton over $10,000. Gibby made $100,000/year and Carlton wanted $10,000 more than the $90,000 the Cards offerred. Club said no one makes Gibby money..... Scipio Spinks was said to be able to throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Then, he blew out his arm and it was over before it started. I don't think Torrez was a particularly hot prospect for the Cards. Then the Yankees got him and he became a stud.

Jose Cruz to the Astros and Andy VanSlyke to the Pirates were lousey trades too.

Even worse HouCard, it was over $5,000!

T. McCarver once told the story that Lefty was driving down Hwy 40 to sign the deal when he heard on KMOX he'd been dealt to the Phillies.

According to the research I did, it was $10K, as I posted above. As much as we complain about the Dewitt's, this was far worse. Not only that, without the ability to sign free agents, as posted throughout this thread, they also dealt, Reuss, Cuellar and Torres in addition to Carlton. So my formative years as a Cardinal fan could have potentially had 1-2 WS appearances instead of a complete blackout, all due to ownership stubborness. In my view, this was far worse than what MO and the Dewitts did over the last 5 years.

No it was $5,000, I heard the story straight McCarver who was Carlton's best friend.


The St. Louis Cardinals traded pitcher Steve Carlton to the Philadelphia Phillies in February 1972 for pitcher Rick Wise because of a $5,000 salary dispute. Carlton asked for $65,000, but the Cardinals, led by owner Gussie Busch, offered him \(\$60,000\). The dispute led to the team trading him to the Phillies.   T

The Salary Dispute: Carlton and Cardinals owner Gussie Busch famously clashed over a $5,000 difference in their contract negotiation.

that's really really pathetic Gussie Busch

The Old Man had a huge temper, go read what he did to his father in order to take control of the brewery.

[2ninr]

Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.

Winn won’t be expensive because he has no power. He’s a $15-$20m per year player. Wetherholt/ Doyle maybe but that’s 3 players. Legit WS contenders have multiple all star player pitching and hitters. Draft and develop only will never win. Adding elite FA is how all teams compete. Look at the Brewers they are more than 50% trade and FA

We are on the same page. Draft and develope alone won't do it. But you have to do it well and we haven't. Until we do, it's more of the same. I think we will have a clear picture by opening day. I'm in favor of trading any older player that will bring back a decent prospect. That's how we get more opportunities to fill the roster with enough above average players that spending on larger fa contracts to plug holes makes sense again.

[mattmitchl44]

Winn won’t be expensive because he has no power. He’s a $15-$20m per year player. Wetherholt/ Doyle maybe but that’s 3 players. Legit WS contenders have multiple all star player pitching and hitters. Draft and develop only will never win. Adding elite FA is how all teams compete. Look at the Brewers they are more than 50% trade and FA

The Cardinals, like most teams, will never be able to afford adding multiple elite FAs (the Ohtanis, Sotos, Judges, Skubals, Skenes, etc. of the world).

The Cardinals may be able to trade for an elite player or two at the right time who is in their ARB-2 or ARB-3 year with their current small market club and the club knows they need to trade them for prospects before they leave via FA.

However, that just means that the Cardinals need to develop even more quality prospects - ones to feed the Cardinals ML roster and ones to be traded to obtain cost effective elite players.

[ScotchMIrish]

Reuss and Carlton cost the Cardinals several world series titles. 500 career wins between them. Add Gibson and that rotation. would have dominated baseball for a decade. More recently Alcantara and Gallen but they have a long way to go before they reach the accomplishment of Reuss and Carlton.

[kscardsfan]

Vern Rapp

Wash your filthy mouth out with soap.