Cardinals lost their identity

[opti mist]

In the past there was Whitey-ball, typified by Ozzie at shortstop and Willie in centerfield, with Brock and Coleman--defense and speed. Hit for average and scratch out runs. It was the Cardinals' identity.

It seemed the Cardinals were going back to that identity with the "pitch-to-contact" and emphasis on defense. This got confused as the Cardinals searched for offense and positions to play Burleson, Walker, and Gorman, none of whom are particularly good at defense. Then when Walker and Gorman also failed at offense, the identity was dazed and confused. If you are going with these three in the everyday lineup, then the pitching philosophy has to switch to "pitching-to-miss bats," which the Cardinals do not have in their farm system ready for MLB.

So, my questions are:
If the Cardinals choose an identity, which should it be: defense or offense, and
Which are they closer to--emphasizing defense or offense?

On a somewhat sidenote, I think it is cheaper to emphasize defense and speed. The power bats are much more expensive as are the power pitchers.

Thinking about this leads me to believe that the Cardinals really are a mess right now with no quick or obvious fix. They may actually try one more year to fix Gorman and Walker. If Gorman and Walker continue to fail, the next several years will be brutal.

Opti

[sikeston bulldog2]

In the past there was Whitey-ball, typified by Ozzie at shortstop and Willie in centerfield, with Brock and Coleman--defense and speed. Hit for average and scratch out runs. It was the Cardinals' identity.

It seemed the Cardinals were going back to that identity with the "pitch-to-contact" and emphasis on defense. This got confused as the Cardinals searched for offense and positions to play Burleson, Walker, and Gorman, none of whom are particularly good at defense. Then when Walker and Gorman also failed at offense, the identity was dazed and confused. If you are going with these three in the everyday lineup, then the pitching philosophy has to switch to "pitching-to-miss bats," which the Cardinals do not have in their farm system ready for MLB.

So, my questions are:
If the Cardinals choose an identity, which should it be: defense or offense, and
Which are they closer to--emphasizing defense or offense?

On a somewhat sidenote, I think it is cheaper to emphasize defense and speed. The power bats are much more expensive as are the power pitchers.

Thinking about this leads me to believe that the Cardinals really are a mess right now with no quick or obvious fix. They may actually try one more year to fix Gorman and Walker. If Gorman and Walker continue to fail, the next several years will be brutal.

Opti

They are closer to a defensive team, with oitch to contact pitchers.

Yes, the term mess is appropriate. Meaning not a one year fix, we allowed ourselves to slip into a whole and now we are under water. The way back from here is long and lucky.

[rockondlouie]

One person is to blame, the guy who had control of the major league roster & the minor league system.

BDWJr was asleep at the wheel allowing Mo to destroy the franchise, should've been fired years ago.

(And yes, I put the blame of BDWJr years ago in multiple threads I started for not doing so).

[russellhammond]

Odd that you would include Brock with either "Whiteyball" or defense. He was gone before Whitey came along and was a horrid defender.

[nighthawk]

The "identity" referenced was intrinsically tied to a cavernous home ballpark and artificial turf. We don't have that anymore.

[JuanAgosto]

The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

[cardsrmyteam]

They took on the identity of their former GM and owner, that's why you could not recognize them as Cardinals.

[Jatalk]

In the past there was Whitey-ball, typified by Ozzie at shortstop and Willie in centerfield, with Brock and Coleman--defense and speed. Hit for average and scratch out runs. It was the Cardinals' identity.

It seemed the Cardinals were going back to that identity with the "pitch-to-contact" and emphasis on defense. This got confused as the Cardinals searched for offense and positions to play Burleson, Walker, and Gorman, none of whom are particularly good at defense. Then when Walker and Gorman also failed at offense, the identity was dazed and confused. If you are going with these three in the everyday lineup, then the pitching philosophy has to switch to "pitching-to-miss bats," which the Cardinals do not have in their farm system ready for MLB.

So, my questions are:
If the Cardinals choose an identity, which should it be: defense or offense, and
Which are they closer to--emphasizing defense or offense?

On a somewhat sidenote, I think it is cheaper to emphasize defense and speed. The power bats are much more expensive as are the power pitchers.

Thinking about this leads me to believe that the Cardinals really are a mess right now with no quick or obvious fix. They may actually try one more year to fix Gorman and Walker. If Gorman and Walker continue to fail, the next several years will be brutal.

Opti

I’m not sure about defense is cheaper for a winning team. Defense is great but if you aren’t scoring runs you have to have great pitching. That ain’t cheap.

[mattmitchl44]

In 1985, two teams hit 180+ HRs (Baltimore and Detroit).

In 2025, 17 teams hit 180+ HRs.

Baseball has changed.

[Stlcardsblues]

One person is to blame, the guy who had control of the major league roster & the minor league system.

BDWJr was asleep at the wheel allowing Mo to destroy the franchise, should've been fired years ago.

(And yes, I put the blame of BDWJr years ago in multiple threads I started for not doing so).

Back in the day where if you questioned Mo or Dewitt you got labeled as whiney and entitled for questioning the organization “built on a winning culture”.

So many have since learned those concerns were spot on not someone being whiney and entitled.

The signs of the wrong person being given control (Mo) date back to November 2014. People were too blinded by Matheny hate to see the damage Mo was doing.

[rockondlouie]

One person is to blame, the guy who had control of the major league roster & the minor league system.

BDWJr was asleep at the wheel allowing Mo to destroy the franchise, should've been fired years ago.

(And yes, I put the blame of BDWJr years ago in multiple threads I started for not doing so).

Back in the day where if you questioned Mo or Dewitt you got labeled as whiney and entitled for questioning the organization “built on a winning culture”.

So many have since learned those concerns were spot on not someone being whiney and entitled.

The signs of the wrong person being given control (Mo) date back to November 2014. People were too blinded by Matheny hate to see the damage Mo was doing.

For sure cardsblues.

Guys like cranny and his kind would come into my "The Real Problem is BDWJr" threads and call me a whinner, spoiled and entitled for saying he's the one who could rectify the problem by firing Mo!

[opti mist]

Odd that you would include Brock with either "Whiteyball" or defense. He was gone before Whitey came along and was a horrid defender.

He was the original "speed" identity, followed by Coleman.

Opti

[ramfandan]

Mo was the ‘pitch ti contact’ proponent. In the last few years, teams have gone to ‘swing and miss’ tuoe pitchers.
Bloom had changed that Mo approach to pitching when he drafted Doyle with No. 1 pick.. premier college strikeout high velo guy.
Look for more high velo arms in future.

[ilcubuffs]

When an organization is ruled/managed/lead/??? by incompetent people who cannot walk the walk or talk the talk you end up with the 2025 Cardinals. To have goals, identity, success, et al you have to have competent people leading in that direction. Shooting an arrow in the sky and no clue where it will land is MO Ran's version of successful POBOy.

[Banner29]

One person is to blame, the guy who had control of the major league roster & the minor league system.

BDWJr was asleep at the wheel allowing Mo to destroy the franchise, should've been fired years ago.

(And yes, I put the blame of BDWJr years ago in multiple threads I started for not doing so).

Back in the day where if you questioned Mo or Dewitt you got labeled as whiney and entitled for questioning the organization “built on a winning culture”.

So many have since learned those concerns were spot on not someone being whiney and entitled.

The signs of the wrong person being given control (Mo) date back to November 2014. People were too blinded by Matheny hate to see the damage Mo was doing.

There is no such thing as an “entitled” paying customer(s). The Cardinal fanbase has blessed Dewitt with being no worse than top 3 in attendance as far as the eye could see all the way up until 2 years ago(when they were still top 10) and only not in the top 10 last year. Dewitt wasn’t giving out free tickets/merchandise/concessions in that time. Fans paid a lot out of their wallets to fill his stadium and he got ALOT wealthier in the process. Those notions that fans are entitled when they started not seeing the bang for their buck is nothing more than gas lighting and pure narcissistic ignorance.

What’s interesting is the most common arguments those individuals would make to support that were saying things like “I guess the Cardinals have to win a World Series every single year” or “people think the Cardinals need to outspend everyone.” Nobody had every once suggested either of those things and are easily refuted considering that the fan support has stayed so strong for so long up until recently only when pure dis function and downright arrogance from the front office became so blatantly obvious. Only then did fans begin to say “nah f*** this”

So yeah, customers can’t be entitled. Especially paying one’s. We’ve simply hit our breaking point and are now putting it on the front office to make it right. He’s a very wealthy man because of the fanbase. His wealth in no way shape or form benefits us. Only thing that benefits us is quality product on the field plain and simple.

And the second those more interested with how much is in Dewitt’s checking account rather than the product on the field realize this is the second they realize how idiotic their argument was all along

[hmoss859]

The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

Spot on

Don’t underestimate HackGate either, there was some nefarious back room dealing with Manfred to save BDW and Mo, lone wolf theory never passed the smell test