The fundamental question for the Cardinals rebuild

[An Old Friend]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

Kyle Schwarber
Freddie Freeman
Corbin Carroll
Matt Olson
James Wood
Rafael Devers
Kyle Tucker
Michael Busch
Kyle Stowers
Jakob Marsee

What do I win?

[Dewey Kuey]

When can they develop a cost controlled ~5+ fWAR position player and ~4+ fWAR starting pitcher to build around?

The Cardinals have been developing some (but maybe not enough) complementary talent in young position players and SPs who are 2-3 fWAR players. What they haven't done is develop position players who would be in the ~Top 20 of all MLB players or pitchers who would be in the ~Top 15 of all MLB SPs. They have to have a couple of top end talent players who they aren't paying $25, $30, $35, etc. million a year for. They can't assemble enough talent if all of their top end players are Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray type veterans who they are sinking ~35-40% of their payroll in.

Identifying, acquiring, and developing at least a couple of cost controlled top end talent players is probably the Cardinals single biggest need as part of this rebuild.

I think this IS the single most important thing that almost HAS to happen if this team is to ever make it through the playoffs and into a world series again. To me this is going to take time and a lot of hard work. This rebuild is not going to happen is a year or two. I hope Bloom is putting together the right people in place to make this happen because the owner of this team can't and won't spend the money it takes to build a championship caliber team. I still think it will take 4-5 years to develop what we need.

[Shady]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

Kyle Schwarber
Freddie Freeman
Corbin Carroll
Matt Olson
James Wood
Rafael Devers
Kyle Tucker
Michael Busch
Kyle Stowers
Jakob Marsee

What do I win?

Only Freeman was in the top ten in NL batting average.

[An Old Friend]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

Kyle Schwarber
Freddie Freeman
Corbin Carroll
Matt Olson
James Wood
Rafael Devers
Kyle Tucker
Michael Busch
Kyle Stowers
Jakob Marsee

What do I win?

Only Freeman was in the top ten in NL batting average.

Schwarber hit 56 HR with 132 RBI
Carroll hit 31 HR and had 32 SB
Stowers hit .288 to Burleson's .290 but had 25 HR and a .544 SLG (to Burleson's .459)
Tucker had 22 HR and 25 SB
Wood is a young phenom with 31 HR, 15 SB, 94 RBI
Devers had 35 HR with 109 RBI
Marsee hit .292 (higher than Burleson's .290) and had 19 HR and 61 SB between AAA and the majors

[Quincy Varnish]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

Kyle Schwarber
Freddie Freeman
Corbin Carroll
Matt Olson
James Wood
Rafael Devers
Kyle Tucker
Michael Busch
Kyle Stowers
Jakob Marsee

What do I win?

You may have forgotten…

Corey Seager
Gunnar Henderson
Nick Kurtz
Jazz Chisholm
Yelich
PCA
Bellinger
Duran

[Mort Gage]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

Kyle Schwarber
Freddie Freeman
Corbin Carroll
Matt Olson
James Wood
Rafael Devers
Kyle Tucker
Michael Busch
Kyle Stowers
Jakob Marsee

What do I win?

Only Freeman was in the top ten in NL batting average.

Your question was name ten NL lefty hitters you would rather have than Burleson and Donovan. You did not ask for ten with a higher batting average. St. Alec and Donovan are definitely not among the top ten best LH NL bats, no matter how much you try to will it so.

[Mort Gage]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

Kyle Schwarber
Freddie Freeman
Corbin Carroll
Matt Olson
James Wood
Rafael Devers
Kyle Tucker
Michael Busch
Kyle Stowers
Jakob Marsee

What do I win?

You may have forgotten…

Corey Seager
Gunnar Henderson
Nick Kurtz
Jazz Chisholm
Yelich
PCA
Bellinger
Duran

He did say NL, but Yelich and PCA are better, as well. Despite being proven wrong Shady will do his little victory dance and ask some variation of the same question again soon.

[sikeston bulldog2]

When can they develop a cost controlled ~5+ fWAR position player and ~4+ fWAR starting pitcher to build around?

The Cardinals have been developing some (but maybe not enough) complementary talent in young position players and SPs who are 2-3 fWAR players. What they haven't done is develop position players who would be in the ~Top 20 of all MLB players or pitchers who would be in the ~Top 15 of all MLB SPs. They have to have a couple of top end talent players who they aren't paying $25, $30, $35, etc. million a year for. They can't assemble enough talent if all of their top end players are Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray type veterans who they are sinking ~35-40% of their payroll in.

Identifying, acquiring, and developing at least a couple of cost controlled top end talent players is probably the Cardinals single biggest need as part of this rebuild.

While I agree with some of this, there is some that I do not.

I agree that the Cardinals have developed a plethora pf very solid complimentary players (Burleson, Donovan, Herrera, Winn, etc.) I also agree that we need some high-end guys to come through.

I disagree that you can't win with acquiring some high end talent via trades or FA. If the Cardinals would spend 180M (arguably should be a little more), as they have in the past, coupled with producing MLB level players in their minor league system, there isn't a reason why spending money on the missing pieces wouldn't work.

Take the current roster, for example. (This is just a hypothetical)

Donovan 7
Wetherholt 4
Kyle Tucker 9
Eugenio Suarez 5
Contreras 3
Burleson DH
Herrera 2
Winn 6
Scott II/Church 8

Rotation:
Framber Valdez
Gray
Pitcher acquired via trade
Liberatore
McGreevy

What would the estimated salary be for this team?
A lot of league minimum guys.
You would be paying big $$$ to Tucker, Valdez, and lesser big $$$ to Contreras, Gray, and Suarez.

Seriously, what would this type of roster cost?
And why couldn't that roster win?

Gray Libby and McG give us a strong 2-3-4. Need a league level Ace. Need a big bat. And hope all the compliments have good years- Donovan Burleson Walker Winn Scott.

[An Old Friend]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

Kyle Schwarber
Freddie Freeman
Corbin Carroll
Matt Olson
James Wood
Rafael Devers
Kyle Tucker
Michael Busch
Kyle Stowers
Jakob Marsee

What do I win?

You may have forgotten…

Corey Seager
Gunnar Henderson
Nick Kurtz
Jazz Chisholm
Yelich
PCA
Bellinger
Duran

He did want NL only lefties. The question reminded me of the old song by Flight of the Conchords, “The Most Beautiful Girl (in the room)”.

https://youtu.be/9jLDZjMF3tk?si=LhETiVKnvr9NiBAk

It’s a classic.

[2ninr]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

WillyCon

For some reason I forget about Willy. You think they trade him?

[sikeston bulldog2]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

WillyCon

For some reason I forget about Willy. You think they trade him?

Yes. After the success of his brother, and several more years to be a contender, I think he rethinkschis position.

[CCard]

When can they develop a cost controlled ~5+ fWAR position player and ~4+ fWAR starting pitcher to build around?

The Cardinals have been developing some (but maybe not enough) complementary talent in young position players and SPs who are 2-3 fWAR players. What they haven't done is develop position players who would be in the ~Top 20 of all MLB players or pitchers who would be in the ~Top 15 of all MLB SPs. They have to have a couple of top end talent players who they aren't paying $25, $30, $35, etc. million a year for. They can't assemble enough talent if all of their top end players are Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray type veterans who they are sinking ~35-40% of their payroll in.

Identifying, acquiring, and developing at least a couple of cost controlled top end talent players is probably the Cardinals single biggest need as part of this rebuild.

Because that's what playoff teams do. That's sarcasm. It would be great to have a young superstar but they don't grow on trees. Weatherholt may fit that bill but he could just as easily flop. Waiting and losing is not the optimal situation for fans and no guarantee of success. We've been down this road before though and you're going to believe what you want. A payroll of around $200 million gives this team a fighting chance with the right signings. The fans deserve it. Imagine 1 TOTR starter to pair with Gray, one big rbi bat in the outfield and 1-2 top relievers. This team would be in the playoffs without Weatherholt. It can easily be done if the purse strings are loosened.

[mattmitchl44]

When can they develop a cost controlled ~5+ fWAR position player and ~4+ fWAR starting pitcher to build around?

The Cardinals have been developing some (but maybe not enough) complementary talent in young position players and SPs who are 2-3 fWAR players. What they haven't done is develop position players who would be in the ~Top 20 of all MLB players or pitchers who would be in the ~Top 15 of all MLB SPs. They have to have a couple of top end talent players who they aren't paying $25, $30, $35, etc. million a year for. They can't assemble enough talent if all of their top end players are Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray type veterans who they are sinking ~35-40% of their payroll in.

Identifying, acquiring, and developing at least a couple of cost controlled top end talent players is probably the Cardinals single biggest need as part of this rebuild.

Because that's what playoff teams do. That's sarcasm. It would be great to have a young superstar but they don't grow on trees. Weatherholt may fit that bill but he could just as easily flop. Waiting and losing is not the optimal situation for fans and no guarantee of success. We've been down this road before though and you're going to believe what you want. A payroll of around $200 million gives this team a fighting chance with the right signings. The fans deserve it. Imagine 1 TOTR starter to pair with Gray, one big rbi bat in the outfield and 1-2 top relievers. This team would be in the playoffs without Weatherholt. It can easily be done if the purse strings are loosened.

Or if/when that group fails because there isn't enough present, cost controlled depth, they could tie themselves to another several years of expensive, declining players (like Arenado, Goldschmidt, Gray, etc.) and doom their ability to compete for multiple additional seasons.

[rockondlouie]

When can they develop a cost controlled ~5+ fWAR position player and ~4+ fWAR starting pitcher to build around?

The Cardinals have been developing some (but maybe not enough) complementary talent in young position players and SPs who are 2-3 fWAR players. What they haven't done is develop position players who would be in the ~Top 20 of all MLB players or pitchers who would be in the ~Top 15 of all MLB SPs. They have to have a couple of top end talent players who they aren't paying $25, $30, $35, etc. million a year for. They can't assemble enough talent if all of their top end players are Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray type veterans who they are sinking ~35-40% of their payroll in.

Identifying, acquiring, and developing at least a couple of cost controlled top end talent players is probably the Cardinals single biggest need as part of this rebuild.

While in agreement, that 4+ fWAR bar for a starting pitcher is going to be real tough.

Best bet for acquiring a pitcher like that may have to come via trade or free agency.

Z. Gallen (going into his age 30 season) is a FA and has reached that level in 2022 & 2023.

If S. Gray is dealt and BDWJr only has to eat $10M of his deal, then I'd love to see them go after Gallen and build the staff around him.

Let's hope JJW can come close to being the Cardinals version of C. Utley, then you'd have your 5+ fWAR hitter to build around.

[Bomber1]

Everyone's hope is Westerholt and Doyle are going to be at least that. But we need more than just those two. We really have forgot what a strong roster looks like when Burleson and Donovan are our best hitters along with Herrera.

Please name ten lefty hitters in the NL, besides Ohtani, Soto and Harper, you would rather have than Donovan and Burleson. Point is, Donovan and Burleson would likely be in the top ten as lefty hitters, overall.

You are completely delusional.

[11WSChamps]

When can they develop a cost controlled ~5+ fWAR position player and ~4+ fWAR starting pitcher to build around?

The Cardinals have been developing some (but maybe not enough) complementary talent in young position players and SPs who are 2-3 fWAR players. What they haven't done is develop position players who would be in the ~Top 20 of all MLB players or pitchers who would be in the ~Top 15 of all MLB SPs. They have to have a couple of top end talent players who they aren't paying $25, $30, $35, etc. million a year for. They can't assemble enough talent if all of their top end players are Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray type veterans who they are sinking ~35-40% of their payroll in.

Identifying, acquiring, and developing at least a couple of cost controlled top end talent players is probably the Cardinals single biggest need as part of this rebuild.

You figured this out all by yourself did you?

Of course it's the biggest need for a franchise that has positioned itself as it has in recent years.

Another "need" is to make (bleep) sure you recognize as an organization how you got in this sorry position in the first place.

That answer is just as obvious.