good hitting beats elite pitching?

[Carp4Cy]

Hunter Greene meets the definition of an Elite Ace. 4.4 War in 19 starts - if he'd been healthy all year he would have been a CY favorite.

Until he ran into the LA Dodgers lineup. Blake Snell is a 1.3 WAR pitcher this year. 2 WAR last year in a more complete season. He's not better than Greene by any measure. But he didn't face nearly as challenging of a lineup.

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Greene is also relatively green compared with Snell. He looked rattled out there, and to be frank, was tossing meatballs. That slider he threw to T. Hernandez for the 3-run HR was your classic cement mixer. Up. Gone.

[Carp4Cy]

Greene is also relatively green compared with Snell. He looked rattled out there, and to be frank, was tossing meatballs. That slider he threw to T. Hernandez for the 3-run HR was your classic cement mixer. Up. Gone.

But isn’t a Greene the absolute ideal outcome that blooms plan could produce? And yet he still gets beat by a somewhat above average vet with a veteran offense behind him.

How is anything a farm system can produce ever going to beat that. You need the right vets to have a chance VS LA.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Greene is also relatively green compared with Snell. He looked rattled out there, and to be frank, was tossing meatballs. That slider he threw to T. Hernandez for the 3-run HR was your classic cement mixer. Up. Gone.

But isn’t a Greene the absolute ideal outcome that blooms plan could produce? And yet he still gets beat by a somewhat above average vet with a veteran offense behind him.

How is anything a farm system can produce ever going to beat that. You need the right vets to have a chance VS LA.

To the point of my thread. Yes. A stud by trade- who you gonna trade? Or FA signing? Who you gonna outbid?

We have fallen so far, these methods simply are rational. Need a new strategy.

[alw80]

Greene is also relatively green compared with Snell. He looked rattled out there, and to be frank, was tossing meatballs. That slider he threw to T. Hernandez for the 3-run HR was your classic cement mixer. Up. Gone.

But isn’t a Greene the absolute ideal outcome that blooms plan could produce? And yet he still gets beat by a somewhat above average vet with a veteran offense behind him.

How is anything a farm system can produce ever going to beat that. You need the right vets to have a chance VS LA.

Are you questioning the great Terry Franconas decision to start Greene?

[makesnosense]

Hunter Greene meets the definition of an Elite Ace. 4.4 War in 19 starts - if he'd been healthy all year he would have been a CY favorite.

Until he ran into the LA Dodgers lineup. Blake Snell is a 1.3 WAR pitcher this year. 2 WAR last year in a more complete season. He's not better than Greene by any measure. But he didn't face nearly as challenging of a lineup.

Snell is a better pitcher than Greene and it's not really close.

[russellhammond]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

[sikeston bulldog2]

How many HOFers on that team- Kershaw Freeman Ohtani?

[Carp4Cy]

How many HOFers on that team- Kershaw Freeman Ohtani?

Yep - we need to target some WS experience - both manager And a player or 2, by 2027.

[sikeston bulldog2]

How many HOFers on that team- Kershaw Freeman Ohtani?

Yep - we need to target some WS experience - both manager And a player or 2, by 2027.

I hear ya, but from where.

[Carp4Cy]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

Agree with you on the Dodgers lineup.

But Greene - 2.75/2.76 ERA past 2 years, 11 K/9ip.
6.2 WAR last year. on pace for 7 WAR this year if he'd made 30 starts. What is the cutoff for Elite? Can't be much higher than 7?

Yeah I'd take off a few points because he's never made 30 starts. But he's a lot closer to elite than he is to any of the Cards pitchers level. Who in our system projects to be better than Greene?

[jcgmoi]

Take the results of one game and extend it to a team's efforts to get relevant again. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess you don't have to watch any more of the playoffs, you've already cracked the code.

[lordoffatness]

Take the results of one game and extend it to a team's efforts to get relevant again. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess you don't have to watch any more of the playoffs, you've already cracked the code.

This. Anything can happen over a small sample size.

Anthony Reyes can beat Verlander.
The Cardinals can rock Kershaw.

[Imperial Capitalist]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

Agree with you on the Dodgers lineup.

But Greene - 2.75/2.76 ERA past 2 years, 11 K/9ip.
6.2 WAR last year. on pace for 7 WAR this year if he'd made 30 starts. What is the cutoff for Elite? Can't be much higher than 7?

Yeah I'd take off a few points because he's never made 30 starts. But he's a lot closer to elite than he is to any of the Cards pitchers level. Who in our system projects to be better than Greene?

7 ip, 1 h, 1 er, 2 bb, 12 k

2.33 ip, 4 h, 5 er, 4 bb, 3 k

Those are Hunter Greene's, respectively, 1st and 2nd starts in September. Team 1: NY Mets. Team 2: 'Oakland' As.

His 3rd start?

9 ip, 1 h, 0 er, 1 bb,9 k --- versus the Chicago Cubs.

When he shat the bed vs a 2nd division team a few weeks ago, should Cincy have altered their rotation to avoid having him face a post-season club in his next start...even though he'd thoroughly dominated a different (then) post-season club in his previous start?

So, what conclusions should we draw from all of this, other than to say Greene stumbled in his first post-season game?

[Carp4Cy]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

Agree with you on the Dodgers lineup.

But Greene - 2.75/2.76 ERA past 2 years, 11 K/9ip.
6.2 WAR last year. on pace for 7 WAR this year if he'd made 30 starts. What is the cutoff for Elite? Can't be much higher than 7?

Yeah I'd take off a few points because he's never made 30 starts. But he's a lot closer to elite than he is to any of the Cards pitchers level. Who in our system projects to be better than Greene?

7 ip, 1 h, 1 er, 2 bb, 12 k

2.33 ip, 4 h, 5 er, 4 bb, 3 k

Those are Hunter Greene's, respectively, 1st and 2nd starts in September. Team 1: NY Mets. Team 2: 'Oakland' As.

His 3rd start?

9 ip, 1 h, 0 er, 1 bb,9 k --- versus the Chicago Cubs.

When he shat the bed vs a 2nd division team a few weeks ago, should Cincy have altered their rotation to avoid having him face a post-season club in his next start...even though he'd thoroughly dominated a different (then) post-season club in his previous start?

So, what conclusions should we draw from all of this, other than to say Greene stumbled in his first post-season game?

My conclusion is that experience probably counts more than any of us realize in the playoffs. Nothing against Greene, and yeah anything Can happen. But I don't want to try to build a contender with no one over 27-28 years old. Its just not going to work.

[russellhammond]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

Agree with you on the Dodgers lineup.

But Greene - 2.75/2.76 ERA past 2 years, 11 K/9ip.
6.2 WAR last year. on pace for 7 WAR this year if he'd made 30 starts. What is the cutoff for Elite? Can't be much higher than 7?

Yeah I'd take off a few points because he's never made 30 starts. But he's a lot closer to elite than he is to any of the Cards pitchers level. Who in our system projects to be better than Greene?

Yes, don't get me wrong, I would take Greene in a second over anyone in the Cardinals organization. But I just don't see "elite" from him. I see very, very good but I guess we have different definitions of elite. Truly elite pitching will trump good, even elite, hitting most of the time.