CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
The size of the Cardinals payroll is a huge question. I know they’re trying to slash right now as part of a rebuild and unclogging mechanism. I just hope it’s not an excuse to establish a new normal. Bloom deserves a payroll commitment similar to what Mo had for supplemental help and retainability of emerging young talent.
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
But without a foundation of young, cost controlled players and a healthy minor league system, spending now just gets you mired in mediocrity - winning like between 76 and 86 games a year.
IF (1) Walker had developed better, (2) Gorman has developed better, (3) Hence was further along, (4) they hadn't traded Gallen, Alcantara, etc. - maybe they would have the foundation to build on now.
I’d say there is already a decent amount of youth foundation, at least enough where we shouldn’t have to wait 3 years to start improving by using all available strategies and resources. Wetherholt, Doyle, Baez, Raniel R, Masyn Winn, McGreevy, Liberatore, JoJo, O’Brien, Svanson, Donovan(same age as Gallen/Alcantara) and what the hell, I’ll even throw Burleson in there.
Add another soon to be top 10 pick, who should be ready to contribute soon seeing the Cards tend to go with college talent (except Walker and we see how that worked out). I mean, how many Wetherholt so-called saviors do we need to wait for? Why does keeping payroll low even matter at this point? It’s not currently inflated. I don’t see why multiple devices and strategies can’t be in play all at once. i.e walking and chew gum.
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑25 Sep 2025 12:55 pm
For those of the opinion it does no good to make the playoffs as a fringe wildcard contender, without a realistic shot to win the WS, I pose the following scenario for discussion.
Let’s assume the team takes the conservative and methodical approach you desire, such as not moving future assets/prospects, only sign short term and inexpensive free agents that doesn’t block or affect developmental opportunities and makes sensible trades with team control in mind. In essence, they do not mortgage the future. I’d even say this is the likely course of action.
With the team already being around .500 and there being 3 wildcard spots, it isn’t far-fetched that making the right moves and some developmental progress of young vets and prospects, they could improve enough to reach a record that might not win the division or be considered a WS favorite, but could accidentally land in the playoff mix.
What would be your take on such a development? Would you want them to “tank” games to avoid the playoffs and jockey for better draft positioning?
Building for the future without building on success also seems an unrealistic approach. Do you suggest “laying low” and suddenly emerge a contender?
Not trying to poke the bear here, as I know many astute posters share the anti-fringe contention mindset. I’m just curious how you see your version of the plan unfolding.
The set up is designed for a tournament. to participate you must qualify. Once in, anything usually happens. Even the top seeds don’t often win.
In fact, you can’t play in WS without first qualifying as a WC. A mere stair step approach.
I actually don’t mind the longer season when the team is competitive. I stop watching when they start falling way far back. I don’t give a [shirt] about watching the slow burn development of Pedro Pages and the like. I also don’t mind the extra wildcards (no more though!) as it helps keeps things interesting, which is the whole purpose of watching!
I don’t need a standard that demands my favorite team hoists the trophy every year. I just want them to be able to give the other guys hell because they remain competitive and have a winning attitude. It’s a team sport, it matters. It’s why I can’t stand the current regime, with their silly “winning isn’t the priority” nonsense. It’s f’ing professional sports. If they aren’t being paid to win, then what the hell are they being paid for? To do the jobs of the minor leagues?
I didn’t even mind the model of trying to remain competitive and see what happens in the playoffs, it made a lot of sense. Mo just made consistent wrong decisions by always betting on the wrong horses, and shipping the right ones out.
Then went on to win 101, 104, and 89 games the following three years.
They were 8th, 6th and 7th in those three years you did not mention. But they lost in the NLDS or WC. BUT...
In the last 30 years (since 1995), 48% of the WS champions have had top 5 payrolls. That is a good correlation and I'd take those odds.
Also, 93% of WS champions and 83% of the WS participants have been in the top half of payroll.
The Cards were 17th this year. The last time they won the WS, they were 7th.
The bigger issue is the Cards' failure to spend on player development, as Katie Woo's article outlined earlier this year.
And I have repeatedly posted -- the Cards have utterly failed to develop international free agents, which has been a key component of WS winners in recent years.
Then went on to win 101, 104, and 89 games the following three years.
They were 8th, 6th and 7th in those three years you did not mention. But they lost in the NLDS or WC. BUT...
In the last 30 years (since 1995), 48% of the WS champions have had top 5 payrolls. That is a good correlation and I'd take those odds.
Also, 93% of WS champions and 83% of the WS participants have been in the top half of payroll.
The Cards were 17th this year. The last time they won the WS, they were 7th.
The bigger issue is the Cards' failure to spend on player development, as Katie Woo's article outlined earlier this year.
And I have repeatedly posted -- the Cards have utterly failed to develop international free agents, which has been a key component of WS winners in recent years.
Excellent observation, especially on the international free agent issue. And payroll doesn’t have to be top 5 or even 10. Upper half makes you at least competitive from that particular aspect, of which there are many that should always be pursued. Otherwise management isn’t doing their full range of duties. Tanking to win later and being cheap is the absolute laziest approach and an insult to the game and the fans.
Then went on to win 101, 104, and 89 games the following three years.
They were 8th, 6th and 7th in those three years you did not mention. But they lost in the NLDS or WC. BUT...
In the last 30 years (since 1995), 48% of the WS champions have had top 5 payrolls. That is a good correlation and I'd take those odds.
Also, 93% of WS champions and 83% of the WS participants have been in the top half of payroll.
The Cards were 17th this year. The last time they won the WS, they were 7th.
The bigger issue is the Cards' failure to spend on player development, as Katie Woo's article outlined earlier this year.
And I have repeatedly posted -- the Cards have utterly failed to develop international free agents, which has been a key component of WS winners in recent years.
Excellent observation, especially on the international free agent issue. And payroll doesn’t have to be top 5 or even 10. Upper half makes you at least competitive from that particular aspect, of which there are many that should always be pursued. Otherwise management isn’t doing their full range of duties. Tanking to win later and being cheap is the absolute laziest approach and an insult to the game and the fans.
Then went on to win 101, 104, and 89 games the following three years.
They were 8th, 6th and 7th in those three years you did not mention. But they lost in the NLDS or WC. BUT...
In the last 30 years (since 1995), 48% of the WS champions have had top 5 payrolls. That is a good correlation and I'd take those odds.
Also, 93% of WS champions and 83% of the WS participants have been in the top half of payroll.
The Cards were 17th this year. The last time they won the WS, they were 7th.
The bigger issue is the Cards' failure to spend on player development, as Katie Woo's article outlined earlier this year.
And I have repeatedly posted -- the Cards have utterly failed to develop international free agents, which has been a key component of WS winners in recent years.
But the Cardinals have never had, and are not going to have, a Top 5 payroll. Per Cot's, the Cardinals have been 10th or lower in payroll 20 times in the last 26 years (9th twice, 8th twice, 7th once, and 6th once).
And as I already agreed:
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
All of which just makes having young, cost controlled players even more important for the Cardinals.
Then went on to win 101, 104, and 89 games the following three years.
They were 8th, 6th and 7th in those three years you did not mention. But they lost in the NLDS or WC. BUT...
In the last 30 years (since 1995), 48% of the WS champions have had top 5 payrolls. That is a good correlation and I'd take those odds.
Also, 93% of WS champions and 83% of the WS participants have been in the top half of payroll.
The Cards were 17th this year. The last time they won the WS, they were 7th.
The bigger issue is the Cards' failure to spend on player development, as Katie Woo's article outlined earlier this year.
And I have repeatedly posted -- the Cards have utterly failed to develop international free agents, which has been a key component of WS winners in recent years.
But the Cardinals have never had, and are not going to have, a Top 5 payroll.
And as I already agreed:
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
Fair point, as you did acknowledge payroll as a critical factor. I can live with a 2 year rebuild, but 4 is too long. As Lance Lynn pointed out in one his recent commentaries, Bloom has been on the job already for two years with significant influence. He said it is time for him to choose the guys he’s identified as winning players and supplement them with free agent talent, while staying the course on draft/development initiatives.
Our farm is no longer in complete shambles and there has been a lot of money cleared from the books, with more being cleared in a few days. He doesn’t need to trade away any high end prospects, because we only have precious few, but no reason to not play the market for a few solid vets, specifically a RH OFer and at least one starting pitcher. We need two but one can come from trade or promotion. They don’t have to be superstars on budget crippling contracts, but they will have to overpay some because that is just the nature of FA.
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 10:19 am
I can live with a 2 year rebuild, but 4 is too long.
2 years, 3 years, 4 years makes no difference to me as long as they really commit to doing it right and setting themselves up for a decade of consistent success after that.
My monies on Bloom being able to turn this ship around in two years w/some (real) quality kids coming up to the major leagues during that time frame.
BDWJr then opens the wallet after there's a new CBA and allows Bloom to sign or trade for some actual star players to fill out the roster where the system is thin.
Then went on to win 101, 104, and 89 games the following three years.
They were 8th, 6th and 7th in those three years you did not mention. But they lost in the NLDS or WC. BUT...
In the last 30 years (since 1995), 48% of the WS champions have had top 5 payrolls. That is a good correlation and I'd take those odds.
Also, 93% of WS champions and 83% of the WS participants have been in the top half of payroll.
The Cards were 17th this year. The last time they won the WS, they were 7th.
The bigger issue is the Cards' failure to spend on player development, as Katie Woo's article outlined earlier this year.
And I have repeatedly posted -- the Cards have utterly failed to develop international free agents, which has been a key component of WS winners in recent years.
But the Cardinals have never had, and are not going to have, a Top 5 payroll. Per Cot's, the Cardinals have been 10th or lower in payroll 20 times in the last 26 years (9th twice, 8th twice, 7th once, and 6th once).
And as I already agreed:
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
All of which just makes having young, cost controlled players even more important for the Cardinals.
I don't disagree on roster payroll, although in the modern game with so much TV/streaming money, the Cards can afford to spend far more. I think they need to get back to the 7-11 area they when they won in 2006 and 2011.
I think it will take far more spending on player development and a scouting system for international players.
