imadangman wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 18:27 pm
I struck up a conversation with a stranger once while hiking who said he was from St Louis. And somehow it came out that he was a neighbor of Girsch in Webster Groves, and he even said his daughters went to the same school as Girsch's kids. Anyways, the guy told me something like the fans may not hear much but rest assured he is a very bright guy and he has a very big impact on the Cardinals. So for what it's worth, there's a second hand testimony. I think this was fall or winter of 2021.
Girsch himself probably told the guy that. He's been around MO long enough to adopt a pompous, holier than though attitude.
When I've heard or seen the guy speak he appears very fidgetty and nervous.
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
Actually, Girsch was hired because of his experience in analytics. Mo was interested by a paper Girsch wrote. He may have set up the analytics system. Either it didn't work or Mozeliak put together a roster and manager incapable of helping it succeed. My guess is the latter.
Girsch seemed to be removed from real baseball operations. He once did an interview with Cat Hayes and was asked about a Wainwright extension which was in the works. Girsch had a deer in headlights look and admitted having no knowledge. Very strange for the GM to be in the dark. He knew less than the Cat about the situation.
Red7 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
I’m not sure I agree.
Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I would bet that when analytics was a new thing and not everyone was using it like today, the Cardinals had a head start and a large advantage as a result. Now everyone is doing it and the edge is gone. The Cardinals’ analytics might very well be just as good as everyone else’s. And therein lies the problem…
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 22:21 pm
Actually, Girsch was hired because of his experience in analytics. Mo was interested by a paper Girsch wrote. He may have set up the analytics system. Either it didn't work or Mozeliak put together a roster and manager incapable of helping it succeed. My guess is the latter.
Girsch seemed to be removed from real baseball operations. He once did an interview with Cat Hayes and was asked about a Wainwright extension which was in the works. Girsch had a deer in headlights look and admitted having no knowledge. Very strange for the GM to be in the dark. He knew less than the Cat about the situation.
Dunno for sure.
I think the Cardinals at one time had an edge, but the rest of MLB caught up, and the advantage is gone. That’s not to say Mo did a good job, however, it’s just one less thing to help separate them from the pack.
Red7 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
I’m not sure I agree.
Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I would bet that when analytics was a new thing and not everyone was using it like today, the Cardinals had a head start and a large advantage as a result. Now everyone is doing it and the edge is gone. The Cardinals’ analytics might very well be just as good as everyone else’s. And therein lies the problem…
What if after Luhnow left, Mozeliak was left with a desire to give the "analytics" his own signature twist to it. Another unrelated thought, is what if when Mozeliak considers what "organizational success" is, he is so buried in his analytics and so far removed from on-field results that he has a front office that views the success entirely from a process-oriented standpoint. That could be corrupt, and that might be where we get the "it's not about wins and losses" attitude.
Red7 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
I’m not sure I agree.
Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I would bet that when analytics was a new thing and not everyone was using it like today, the Cardinals had a head start and a large advantage as a result. Now everyone is doing it and the edge is gone. The Cardinals’ analytics might very well be just as good as everyone else’s. And therein lies the problem…
What if after Luhnow left, Mozeliak was left with a desire to give the "analytics" his own signature twist to it. Another unrelated thought, is what if when Mozeliak considers what "organizational success" is, he is so buried in his analytics and so far removed from on-field results that he has a front office that views the success entirely from a process-oriented standpoint. That could be corrupt, and that might be where we get the "it's not about wins and losses" attitude.
Mozeliak judges success by the profit bottom line. So does DeWitt. There's your problem.
Red7 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
I’m not sure I agree.
Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I would bet that when analytics was a new thing and not everyone was using it like today, the Cardinals had a head start and a large advantage as a result. Now everyone is doing it and the edge is gone. The Cardinals’ analytics might very well be just as good as everyone else’s. And therein lies the problem…
What if after Luhnow left, Mozeliak was left with a desire to give the "analytics" his own signature twist to it. Another unrelated thought, is what if when Mozeliak considers what "organizational success" is, he is so buried in his analytics and so far removed from on-field results that he has a front office that views the success entirely from a process-oriented standpoint. That could be corrupt, and that might be where we get the "it's not about wins and losses" attitude.
You raise some excellent points.
I was thinking purely in terms of the data collected on the players, the validity of the algorhithms being used, etc. being “correct”. If I’m reading you correctly, you’re talking more about the mindset in how that data is interpreted and used. It would be very possible to draw poor conclusions from perfectly valid data, especially if one doesn’t have a feel for the game. The assumptions and biases one carries could easily lead to some really unfortunate results.
Red7 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
I’m not sure I agree.
Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I would bet that when analytics was a new thing and not everyone was using it like today, the Cardinals had a head start and a large advantage as a result. Now everyone is doing it and the edge is gone. The Cardinals’ analytics might very well be just as good as everyone else’s. And therein lies the problem…
What if after Luhnow left, Mozeliak was left with a desire to give the "analytics" his own signature twist to it. Another unrelated thought, is what if when Mozeliak considers what "organizational success" is, he is so buried in his analytics and so far removed from on-field results that he has a front office that views the success entirely from a process-oriented standpoint. That could be corrupt, and that might be where we get the "it's not about wins and losses" attitude.
You raise some excellent points.
I was thinking purely in terms of the data collected on the players, the validity of the algorhithms being used, etc. being “correct”. If I’m reading you correctly, you’re talking more about the mindset in how that data is interpreted and used. It would be very possible to draw poor conclusions from perfectly valid data, especially if one doesn’t have a feel for the game. The assumptions and biases one carries could easily lead to some really unfortunate results.
Thanks for that.
Yeah interpretation. What if the whole 1 playoff win in 10 years doesn't even matter to them, because they are so process-oriented that they've arrived at some way of thinking where they believe playoffs are just a total crapshoot and that they trust whatever process or system it is that keeps putting them "in contention" every year. Maybe their analytics allow them to look in hindsight with a brighter view than we do. It's kind of like when we make major mistakes in life, but then we can look back and kind of rationalize our decision making process to where we are kind of alright with it. Maybe that's how Mozeliak could become so out of touch.
I guess the answer is what did you learn and what's going to provoke you to try and do better. In Mozeliak's spot, I guess that's where we arrive at the idea that he's had no pressure under his seat for way too long.
Red7 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
To your point, wasn't Mozeliak the one pretty much in charge of drafting Molina. I can see how Mozeliak would feel some type of special ownership or knowledge of whatever the "system" was the entire time Molina was here. And how we got to the point in 2023 where Contreras was having trouble learning such an esoteric "system" to the point that Molina was being contacted for help. I personally think the front office seriously miscalculated how much they were relying on Molina to save their mistakes, especially when it comes to the lack of pitching depth. Do you know that they got through the 2019 season with only 7 pitchers making starts that season, and the 6th and 7th guys were only responsible for making 8 and 2 of those starts respectively. That's got to be an extremely rare case of something that rarely happens, especially for a playoff team.
Look every team has some luck. For a team to win 90 games, you're not gonna just go exactly 15-12 every month. Just a steady season. There's always ups and downs, and something lucky happens or there's a surprise performance. But there had been some extreme cases of that with Molina around. I don't mean to sound like too much of a Molina fanboy. I really just don't think the front office understood. Or maybe the analytics led to an oversight.
Red7 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:19 pm
Girsch essentially did what Mo is doing this year: running the day-to-day administrative operations. When Mo was made POBO and Girsch GM, it was supposedly done to free up Mo to oversee the overhaul of the analytics department. While everyone focuses on the on field results and personnel, the analytics staff operates scrutiny free. In my opinion, it all starts there. This team is almost 100% analytics driven. EVERYTHING is based on analytics.
The Cardinals have prided themselves on having a “unique” system. Supposedly it’s the competitive edge. The use a totally different system to find, gather, analyze and utilized data. Personally, I think their data is corrupt from the get go. THIS, was MO’s greatest failure.
I’m not sure I agree.
Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I would bet that when analytics was a new thing and not everyone was using it like today, the Cardinals had a head start and a large advantage as a result. Now everyone is doing it and the edge is gone. The Cardinals’ analytics might very well be just as good as everyone else’s. And therein lies the problem…
What if after Luhnow left, Mozeliak was left with a desire to give the "analytics" his own signature twist to it. Another unrelated thought, is what if when Mozeliak considers what "organizational success" is, he is so buried in his analytics and so far removed from on-field results that he has a front office that views the success entirely from a process-oriented standpoint. That could be corrupt, and that might be where we get the "it's not about wins and losses" attitude.
You raise some excellent points.
I was thinking purely in terms of the data collected on the players, the validity of the algorhithms being used, etc. being “correct”. If I’m reading you correctly, you’re talking more about the mindset in how that data is interpreted and used. It would be very possible to draw poor conclusions from perfectly valid data, especially if one doesn’t have a feel for the game. The assumptions and biases one carries could easily lead to some really unfortunate results.
Thanks for that.
Yeah interpretation. What if the whole 1 playoff win in 10 years doesn't even matter to them, because they are so process-oriented that they've arrived at some way of thinking where they believe playoffs are just a total crapshoot and that they trust whatever process or system it is that keeps putting them "in contention" every year. Maybe their analytics allow them to look in hindsight with a brighter view than we do. It's kind of like when we make major mistakes in life, but then we can look back and kind of rationalize our decision making process to where we are kind of alright with it. Maybe that's how Mozeliak could become so out of touch.
I guess the answer is what did you learn and what's going to provoke you to try and do better. In Mozeliak's spot, I guess that's where we arrive at the idea that he's had no pressure under his seat for way too long.
imadangman wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 18:27 pm
I struck up a conversation with a stranger once while hiking who said he was from St Louis. And somehow it came out that he was a neighbor of Girsch in Webster Groves, and he even said his daughters went to the same school as Girsch's kids. Anyways, the guy told me something like the fans may not hear much but rest assured he is a very bright guy and he has a very big impact on the Cardinals. So for what it's worth, there's a second hand testimony. I think this was fall or winter of 2021.
Clearly he didn't have a big impact.
And if he did, it was a negative impact.
