Pitch counts

[RamFan08NY]

Kinda odd that some say it is too difficult to throw a high number of pitches at a high velocity .
Unsure what Bob Gibson's speed was for his fastballs but in1968 he had about 28 complete (9 inning games ) and did just great.

The Cardinals No. 1 pick in the past draft , Liam Doyle, throws over 100 MPH and last year vs Miami Ohio threw 104 pitched in 6.2 innings in a game.
Think this 'pitch count' gets overblown a lot . Don't remember in 1968 anyone worried that Bob Gibson's arm might fall off . The guy went 3 times through the lineups and still ended the year with a 1.12 ERA lowest in history to this day .

Pitchers in Gibsons day didn't put anywhere near the stress on their arms that today's pitchers do. Plus, today's pitchers do not want to throw pitches in the strike zone , leading to much higher, early pitch counts.

Like it or not, there is a reason that 1 in 5 pitchers today are going to require TJ surgery.

There are some freak pitchers of our day. Gibson and Ryan are the first to come to mind. To use Gibson as an example and expect today's pitchers to do what he did is absolutely ridiculous. And, if you're using thise kind of comparisons, cy Young had 749 complete games. Was Gibson babied because he "only" had 250?

[CorneliusWolfe]

If you’re constantly pulled after 5 innings/ 70-some pitches; or never allowed to approach or exceed 100 pitches in a game, why, that’s all you’ll ever get out of your young starters

Is Nolan Ryan right?

Spot on. When standards and expectations are set so low, the players adapt.

[jcgmoi]

Call it CT's First Law of Pitching: Any discussion of starting pitching will inevitably lead to mention of Gibson's 1968 season and how modern pitchers fall so very short in every measure by comparison, physical, mental, and emotional.

First Corollary of FLoP: Mention of Gibson's "1.12 ERA lowest in history to this day" will conveniently ignore Dutch Leonard's 1914 season.

1968 was 57 years ago and 1914 was 54 years before that. Obviously the game has changed. Standards should change too.

[The Nard]

Call it CT's First Law of Pitching: Any discussion of starting pitching will inevitably lead to mention of Gibson's 1968 season and how modern pitchers fall so very short in every measure by comparison, physical, mental, and emotional.

First Corollary of FLoP: Mention of Gibson's "1.12 ERA lowest in history to this day" will conveniently ignore Dutch Leonard's 1914 season.

1968 was 57 years ago and 1914 was 54 years before that. Obviously the game has changed. Standards should change too.

Not sure, but what you’re positing is that today’s pitchers are unable to match the performance of pitchers 30-50 years ago?

I’d disagree, of course. It’s a matter of training and expectations.

[ScotchMIrish]

IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

Perhaps but then why is Pallante throwing 90+ so much? People are more excited about the prospects of Liberatore being a good starter because his ERA is lower but the reason it's lower is because Marmol doesn't leave him out there to get shelled like he does with Pallante. Little chance Pallante would have been pulled after 65 pitches and 4 runs.

Is it Marmol? Is it the front office?

Without a doubt the ERA's would be different if they left Liberatore in longer. I think the difference is pretty straightforward and has been discussed extensively on 101.1 and the broadcasters. Pallante maintains velocity, but his stuff is straight and he doesn't miss that many ABs. Therefore, he pitches longer because his results are pretty consistent pitches 1-95, even if they are not good. Liberatore seems to consistently lose velocity around pitch 60 or so. If they left him in longer, he would simply become a batting practice pitcher. His in ability to maintain velocity certainly calls into question whether he really will be a starter long term. His pitches have much more movement than Pallante's which gives him much higher upside potential. But, if he can't maintain velocity, then he is a relief pitcher.

Look at Liberatore's ERA monthly. It got progressively worse. 6 starts in August. He threw 90+ pitches 5 of 6 starts with an ERA for August over 8.

I don't live in St Louis or listen to that station but if they are justifying that then the must have failed math in school. Bob Gibson during a rain delay in an old broadcast from Shannon's said what happens when you are tired is your breaking pitches don't break as sharply and that's why he threw more fastballs in the late innings. It's not about velocity. Clearly Pallante was tired and they continued to have him throw 90+ most of the time.

Yea, but Gibson didn't lose 10 mph off his fastball either during starts. He also hit people that sat on his pitches...My dad loved Gibson and almost every game he took me to when I was growing up was a Gibson pitched game. Yep Liberatore has gotten worse. He has worn down and getting beat up. Maybe he gets better next year maybe not. My point was that Pallante won't get better, he is who he is. Liberatore has a bit more upside, but maybe no much. We will see.

Pallante's ERA in August was over 8. He threw 90+ pitcher 5 of 6 starts. There had to be one pitcher in the minors who wasn't worn out and could had spot started a couple times to allow him to rest.

[ScotchMIrish]

Maybe the club could add you to the payroll to tell them when their SPs are tiring.

LOL - I'd like to hear Marmol discuss the disparity.

Last night Liberatore 4 innings 65 pitches 4 relieve pitchers used.

Thats your biggest worry? That a team that is out of the playoff picture are choosing not to push their young pitchers in September? You looking for style points?

I'm not worried about anything. They are all millionaires. Just discussing the Cardinals. Pallante had an ERA over 8 in August and manger kept leaving him on the mound to throw 90 pitches.

[cardinalsfever44]

I'm going to drop 1 stat here.

In 1968, all of MLB had 1,995 HR's.

In the last full MLB season in 2024, MLB had 5,423 HR's.

Huge difference.

A pitcher today can't just relax through the bottom half of an order and at worst give up a scratch single or two. All hitters today are taught to do damage. To counter this, pitchers have to throw everything hard and with tons of spin so it moves and misses the sweet part of a hitters bat. This high spin causes a lot of strain on the human arm.

Comparing pitching in 1968 to 2025 is complete apples to oranges.

[renostl]

Maybe the club could add you to the payroll to tell them when their SPs are tiring.

LOL - I'd like to hear Marmol discuss the disparity.

Last night Liberatore 4 innings 65 pitches 4 relieve pitchers used.

Thats your biggest worry? That a team that is out of the playoff picture are choosing not to push their young pitchers in September? You looking for style points?

I'm not worried about anything. They are all millionaires. Just discussing the Cardinals. Pallante had an ERA over 8 in August and manger kept leaving him on the mound to throw 90 pitches.

I don't know if it is an AP comparison to only Libs. I think that it is more an AP vs the other 3 starters that have a comparable
number of starts. SG, MM, ML.
Importantly, once Marmol become cautious with a pitcher as he has with Libs and fatigue fears and Mikolous
with production fears he stays that way.

Of those starters each pitchers has
starts where throwing 90+ pitches

AP has 18 in 28 starts 2 with 100 or more
SG has 12 in 29 starts 1 with 100 or more
ML has 7 in 27 starts 1 with 100 or more
MM has 3 in 28 starts 1 with 100 or more

Before we conclude that they were pulled because they were being rocked

AP
4 games giving up 3 runs
13 games giving up 2 runs or less
11 games >3 runs, the team high.

SG
6 games giving up 3 runs
14 games giving up 2 runs or less
9 games >3 rums

ML
4 games giving up 3 runs
16 games giving up 2 runs or less, tied for team high
7 games >3 runs, the team low

MM
4 games giving up 3 runs
16 games giving up 2 runs or less, tied for team high
8 games > 3 runs

IMO the Oli is pulling the other 3 SPs quicker than AP for variable reasons.

[RamFan08NY]

I'm going to drop 1 stat here.

In 1968, all of MLB had 1,995 HR's.

In the last full MLB season in 2024, MLB had 5,423 HR's.

Huge difference.

A pitcher today can't just relax through the bottom half of an order and at worst give up a scratch single or two. All hitters today are taught to do damage. To counter this, pitchers have to throw everything hard and with tons of spin so it moves and misses the sweet part of a hitters bat. This high spin causes a lot of strain on the human arm.

Comparing pitching in 1968 to 2025 is complete apples to oranges.

That, imo, is one of the best posts I've read regarding today's pitchers. Anyone that is old enough to have watched games in the 60s and 70s know that 95% of the SS and 2B were 165 lb guys who choked up on the bat, and the same % of catcher hit 8th and could not hit a lick. Add in the pitchers slot in the lineup and that's almost half of the lineup that put zero pressure on the pitcher.

[ScotchMIrish]

Maybe the club could add you to the payroll to tell them when their SPs are tiring.

LOL - I'd like to hear Marmol discuss the disparity.

Last night Liberatore 4 innings 65 pitches 4 relieve pitchers used.

Thats your biggest worry? That a team that is out of the playoff picture are choosing not to push their young pitchers in September? You looking for style points?

I'm not worried about anything. They are all millionaires. Just discussing the Cardinals. Pallante had an ERA over 8 in August and manger kept leaving him on the mound to throw 90 pitches.

I don't know if it is an AP comparison to only Libs. I think that it is more an AP vs the other 3 starters that have a comparable
number of starts. SG, MM, ML.
Importantly, once Marmol become cautious with a pitcher as he has with Libs and fatigue fears and Mikolous
with production fears he stays that way.

Of those starters each pitchers has
starts where throwing 90+ pitches

AP has 18 in 28 starts 2 with 100 or more
SG has 12 in 29 starts 1 with 100 or more
ML has 7 in 27 starts 1 with 100 or more
MM has 3 in 28 starts 1 with 100 or more

Before we conclude that they were pulled because they were being rocked

AP
4 games giving up 3 runs
13 games giving up 2 runs or less
11 games >3 runs, the team high.

SG
6 games giving up 3 runs
14 games giving up 2 runs or less
9 games >3 rums

ML
4 games giving up 3 runs
16 games giving up 2 runs or less, tied for team high
7 games >3 runs, the team low

MM
4 games giving up 3 runs
16 games giving up 2 runs or less, tied for team high
8 games > 3 runs

IMO the Oli is pulling the other 3 SPs quicker than AP for variable reasons.

Please continue. What are those variable reasons? Pallante had an August ERA of 8+ and was left in the game to throw 90+ in 5 of 6 starts.