For the Matheny haters

[Cranny]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I thought you didn’t have the experience to have any opinions?

I've met him, and know others who are good friends of his. They've given me an idea of what kind of person he is, and
the human qualities he has which may lead to being effective in the areas I mentioned.

This really did make me laugh out loud. You know people who are friends with him. They said positive things about their friend. Therefore, he must be an effective manager.

Laugh all you want, Bad. But friends can give you the pluses and minuses. They actually can be quite objective.

[Ozziesfan41]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

And who can forget him wanting to keep Edward Mujica on the post season roster in 2013 after developing shoulder problems after being Matheneyed all season and having a 11.05 September ERA then not using him hardly when they could have kept Tyler Lyons who had an 0.99 ERA in relief and lefties hit just .228 .279 .630 ops during the season because no way another lefty who can get lefties out would have been useful against the Red Sox in the World Series. But hey let’s keep an injured guy who you don’t trust to pitch on the roster

[Cranny]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

And who can forget him wanting to keep Edward Mujica on the post season roster in 2013 after developing shoulder problems after being Matheneyed all season and having a 11.05 September ERA then not using him hardly when they could have kept Tyler Lyons who had an 0.99 ERA in relief and lefties hit just .228 .279 .630 ops during the season because no way another lefty who can get lefties out would have been useful against the Red Sox in the World Series. But hey let’s keep an injured guy who you don’t trust to pitch on the roster

How do you know Lyons wasn't injured? Maybe he wasn't available.

[ecleme22]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

And who can forget him wanting to keep Edward Mujica on the post season roster in 2013 after developing shoulder problems after being Matheneyed all season and having a 11.05 September ERA then not using him hardly when they could have kept Tyler Lyons who had an 0.99 ERA in relief and lefties hit just .228 .279 .630 ops during the season because no way another lefty who can get lefties out would have been useful against the Red Sox in the World Series. But hey let’s keep an injured guy who you don’t trust to pitch on the roster

How do you know Lyons wasn't injured? Maybe he wasn't available.

Take it easy, Champ. Maybe sit the next couple plays out…

[Cranny]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

And who can forget him wanting to keep Edward Mujica on the post season roster in 2013 after developing shoulder problems after being Matheneyed all season and having a 11.05 September ERA then not using him hardly when they could have kept Tyler Lyons who had an 0.99 ERA in relief and lefties hit just .228 .279 .630 ops during the season because no way another lefty who can get lefties out would have been useful against the Red Sox in the World Series. But hey let’s keep an injured guy who you don’t trust to pitch on the roster

How do you know Lyons wasn't injured? Maybe he wasn't available.

Take it easy, Champ. Maybe sit the next couple plays out…

My point, Champ, is that not one person on here has any inside information that could affect decisions. Just a bunch of anonymous guys firing into a void.

[YNWA2016]

of course Matheny had haters but not one Matheny hater would realistically ever take Oli over him. come on who ever said that? no one is that dumb


the real manager the Cards let go that is actually good is Schildt. he was by far the best since TRL and since the organization was too racist thinking to allow Oquendo to get the job bc of marketing reasons in front of the camera.,

[ecleme22]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

And who can forget him wanting to keep Edward Mujica on the post season roster in 2013 after developing shoulder problems after being Matheneyed all season and having a 11.05 September ERA then not using him hardly when they could have kept Tyler Lyons who had an 0.99 ERA in relief and lefties hit just .228 .279 .630 ops during the season because no way another lefty who can get lefties out would have been useful against the Red Sox in the World Series. But hey let’s keep an injured guy who you don’t trust to pitch on the roster

How do you know Lyons wasn't injured? Maybe he wasn't available.

Take it easy, Champ. Maybe sit the next couple plays out…

My point, Champ, is that not one person on here has any inside information that could affect decisions. Just a bunch of anonymous guys firing into a void.

"Maybe Lyons was injured?"
"Maybe Mujica was the only available arm in the entire organization?"

People on this thread have already pointed out your idiocy.

[Ozziesfan41]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

And who can forget him wanting to keep Edward Mujica on the post season roster in 2013 after developing shoulder problems after being Matheneyed all season and having a 11.05 September ERA then not using him hardly when they could have kept Tyler Lyons who had an 0.99 ERA in relief and lefties hit just .228 .279 .630 ops during the season because no way another lefty who can get lefties out would have been useful against the Red Sox in the World Series. But hey let’s keep an injured guy who you don’t trust to pitch on the roster

How do you know Lyons wasn't injured? Maybe he wasn't available.

Take it easy, Champ. Maybe sit the next couple plays out…

My point, Champ, is that not one person on here has any inside information that could affect decisions. Just a bunch of anonymous guys firing into a void.

There were several articles written about the choice of keeping mujica on the roster and they said he was kept on the roster at the expense of Sam freeman and Tyler lyons. And if not either of them pick an arm that isn’t injured and ineffective who you might decide to use if necessary it was same thing as keeping wacha on the roster except at least he was smart enough to not use mujica and was dumb enough to use wacha

[ecleme22]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

And who can forget him wanting to keep Edward Mujica on the post season roster in 2013 after developing shoulder problems after being Matheneyed all season and having a 11.05 September ERA then not using him hardly when they could have kept Tyler Lyons who had an 0.99 ERA in relief and lefties hit just .228 .279 .630 ops during the season because no way another lefty who can get lefties out would have been useful against the Red Sox in the World Series. But hey let’s keep an injured guy who you don’t trust to pitch on the roster

How do you know Lyons wasn't injured? Maybe he wasn't available.

Take it easy, Champ. Maybe sit the next couple plays out…

My point, Champ, is that not one person on here has any inside information that could affect decisions. Just a bunch of anonymous guys firing into a void.

There were several articles written about the choice of keeping mujica on the roster and they said he was kept on the roster at the expense of Sam freeman and Tyler lyons

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

[Lloyd Braun]

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

You have deep seeded issues. And an unhealthy obsession of hate.
Literally not one thing you've posted constitutes proof Matheny was a bad manager.

Not one.

And your moronic take that Matheny should have played a blind player, is more than enough proof that your takes aren't even opinions. They are just stupid.

No one on Cards Talk has ever suggested something more ridiculous, more stupid, than claiming Matheny is bad because he didn't play a blind player more in Sept 2016.

That takes the cake as the most insane thing anyone has ever claimed.

I do appreciate you revealing yourself in this topic though.

Saves everyone time from taking anything you say seriously ever again

[An Old Friend]

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

You have deep seeded issues. And an unhealthy obsession of hate.
Literally not one thing you've posted constitutes proof Matheny was a bad manager.

Not one.

And your moronic take that Matheny should have played a blind player, is more than enough proof that your takes aren't even opinions. They are just stupid.

No one on Cards Talk has ever suggested something more ridiculous, more stupid, than claiming Matheny is bad because he didn't play a blind player more in Sept 2016.

That takes the cake as the most insane thing anyone has ever claimed.

I do appreciate you revealing yourself in this topic though.

Saves everyone time from taking anything you say seriously ever again

He’s already suggested that one’s already formed opinion can blind them in a debate like this one. Is there any better example of this than literally him?

[ecleme22]

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

You have deep seeded issues. And an unhealthy obsession of hate.
Literally not one thing you've posted constitutes proof Matheny was a bad manager.

Not one.

And your moronic take that Matheny should have played a blind player, is more than enough proof that your takes aren't even opinions. They are just stupid.

No one on Cards Talk has ever suggested something more ridiculous, more stupid, than claiming Matheny is bad because he didn't play a blind player more in Sept 2016.

That takes the cake as the most insane thing anyone has ever claimed.

I do appreciate you revealing yourself in this topic though.

Saves everyone time from taking anything you say seriously ever again

Pham 2015: .824 OPS
Pham in August, 2016: .843 OPS
Pham end of August, 2016: .813 OPS
Pham 2017: .931 OPS

You: "But he wus blind in da month of Septembu, 2016!"

Got it.

[Ozziesfan41]

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

You have deep seeded issues. And an unhealthy obsession of hate.
Literally not one thing you've posted constitutes proof Matheny was a bad manager.

Not one.

And your moronic take that Matheny should have played a blind player, is more than enough proof that your takes aren't even opinions. They are just stupid.

No one on Cards Talk has ever suggested something more ridiculous, more stupid, than claiming Matheny is bad because he didn't play a blind player more in Sept 2016.

That takes the cake as the most insane thing anyone has ever claimed.

I do appreciate you revealing yourself in this topic though.

Saves everyone time from taking anything you say seriously ever again

Pham 2015: .824 OPS
Pham in August, 2016: .843 OPS
Pham end of August, 2016: .813 OPS
Pham 2017: .931 OPS

You: "But he wus blind in da month of Septembu, 2016!"

Got it.

My opinion your opinion and their opinions don’t matter. But 30 teams including 2 who already fired him don’t think he should be a manager that should count for something. And on top of that when MM was hired in KC he said he worked on his people skills and on embracing analytics two things that contributed to his St. Louis firing you would think they would at least believe Matheny himself but they dont want to be wrong so bad they wont even believe him that’s hilarious

[Cranny]

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

You have deep seeded issues. And an unhealthy obsession of hate.
Literally not one thing you've posted constitutes proof Matheny was a bad manager.

Not one.

And your moronic take that Matheny should have played a blind player, is more than enough proof that your takes aren't even opinions. They are just stupid.

No one on Cards Talk has ever suggested something more ridiculous, more stupid, than claiming Matheny is bad because he didn't play a blind player more in Sept 2016.

That takes the cake as the most insane thing anyone has ever claimed.

I do appreciate you revealing yourself in this topic though.

Saves everyone time from taking anything you say seriously ever again

Pham 2015: .824 OPS
Pham in August, 2016: .843 OPS
Pham end of August, 2016: .813 OPS
Pham 2017: .931 OPS

You: "But he wus blind in da month of Septembu, 2016!"

Got it.

My opinion your opinion and their opinions don’t matter. But 30 teams including 2 who already fired him don’t think he should be a manager that should count for something. And on top of that when MM was hired in KC he said he worked on his people skills and on embracing analytics two things that contributed to his St. Louis firing you would think they would at least believe Matheny himself but they dont want to be wrong so bad they wont even believe him that’s hilarious

Are you recognizing his health issue?

[ScotchMIrish]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I mean your first post in this thread you said "Mike did very well with the talent he had . . ."

Sure it's not a direct quote of somebody (you) calling him great, you sidestepped that, but it's praise nonetheless.

You then did your normal song and dance about making excuses for players he had, and then trotting out his winning %, and saying that's all that matters (until he went elsewhere and it was awful).

Then you say you can't comment on a manager because you don't know enough about it but now are saying there's a lot of stuff managers do that we don't see but you feel good enough to "guess that Matheny was very good at some of those things".

Every coach in every sport, at almost any level has to deal with those things, and/or have coaches on their staff to help with those things. That's the bare minimum to even be considered as a coach.

At the highest levels of sports winning is very important and as a baseball manager that means making good tactical decisions to put your team in the best position to succeed. Matheny was not good at that. No, I haven't watched other teams enough to rank every manager in MLB. But I watched the Cardinals incredibly close for multiple decades now. Since DeWitt became owner, IMO, Matheny is the worst tactician the Cardinals have had as a manager, worse than even Oli. I've seen other managers a lot if they managed a division rival or if they went deep into the post-season (Francona was amazing in 2016 playoffs, like TLR in 2011). I believe there was an article 10 or so years ago that tried to quantify certain aspects of a manager's in game decisions and Matheny ranked near the bottom.

Loved Matheny as a player and always thought he'd make a good pitching coach. I was cautiously optimistic about him being hired as a manager, but that feeling quickly vanished as it was clear almost instantly he wasn't a good in game decision maker. He required a set roster and well defined bullpen roles that he could fall back on (why even have a manager if you need everything pre-determined?).

Anyway, as another poster said, this season must be pretty uninteresting for fans if we're relitigating discussions about a manager that was fired almost a decade ago (hired by another team, fired, and not hired by any of the other 28 teams that should be experts on MLB managers).

What got Matheny fired may have been that he went with his experience too much and didn't follow what the analytics analysts said to do. What got Shildt fired may have been somewhat the same thing, along with demands for Mo to make certain player moves. I agree with you that Matheny would have been a pretty good pitching coach.

According to this forum at the time Shildt went on a local sports talk show and said he did as good as could be expected given the talent he was given. If true that's what got him fired.

[sdaltons]

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

You have deep seeded issues. And an unhealthy obsession of hate.
Literally not one thing you've posted constitutes proof Matheny was a bad manager.

Not one.

And your moronic take that Matheny should have played a blind player, is more than enough proof that your takes aren't even opinions. They are just stupid.

No one on Cards Talk has ever suggested something more ridiculous, more stupid, than claiming Matheny is bad because he didn't play a blind player more in Sept 2016.

That takes the cake as the most insane thing anyone has ever claimed.

I do appreciate you revealing yourself in this topic though.

Saves everyone time from taking anything you say seriously ever again

Pham 2015: .824 OPS
Pham in August, 2016: .843 OPS
Pham end of August, 2016: .813 OPS
Pham 2017: .931 OPS

You: "But he wus blind in da month of Septembu, 2016!"

Got it.

You aren't dealing with the brightest crayon in the box there, that's for sure.