Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 14:56 pm
OF Donny, VS2, Walker
IF Gorman, Winn, JJW, Contreras
C Crooks/Herrera
DH Burly/Herrera
Role them out day in and day out. Sink or swim.
any lineup with VS2 isn't the best possible upside
Thank you
Agree. The theory that VSII will become a legit hitter is belied by his regressive performance from college to the minors to MLB. Only 61 career runs scored by a guy with his speed. He's very good defensively, but he has a -1.1 arm (e.g., only 3 assists in MLB).
College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Minors - .264/.344/.381/.725
MLB - .210/.283/.303/.586
Out of the current players in the organization, who would you play in CF the rest of the season?
I'm on record for saying I’d give Nathan Church a shot.
Outside the box idea, what about JJW?
Solid, since it aligns with a common thought.
I've had him as a potential in the OF mix. A Jackson Merrill type at least
until Arenado, or Donovan, or Gorman have their fates determined.
Cards IMO, can't put 2 negative gloves in the OF then compound the issue
with contact pitching. IF even 1 of Herrera, Walker, or Burleson are out there, a
plus glove should be too, IF JJ can be above average out there. IF he is
an above average CF then even better.
So often hear from the WAR haters that the way to measure offensive production is to add runs scored with RBI's minus HR's (since they count twice) to come up with a number to measure a players offensive production. I used to do the same thing when I was about 10, pouring over the Sunday's Des Moines Register sports section.
Also hear how VS2 doesn't produce much offense. The main 3 OF'ers this season have been Burly, Noot and VS2.
Here's the comp:
Burly in 106 games with 365 AB's has 41 runs scored with 51 RBI's minus 14 HR's = 78
Noot in 94 games and 354 AB's with 51 runs scored plus 40 RBI's -12 HR's = 79
VS2 in 110 games and 337 AB's with 47 runs scored with 33 RBI's minus 5 HR's = 75
Burly gets to hit in the MOTO and some of his production has been at DH and 1B. VS2 hits at the bottom of the order giving him fewer plate appearances to produce. So they're all about the same, which suggest plus base running and SB's can lead to better offensive production even with a weaker bat. Now take into account AB's gidp's and compare defense between the players, and I'd arrive with VS2 as the Cards most productive Cards OF so far this year.
And for the WAR haters, VS2 with a +1.9 bWAR, Burly with a +1.3 bWAR, and Noot with a +1.2 bWAR. Yep.
So yeah, VS2 would be my CF'er IF trying to win.
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 14:56 pm
OF Donny, VS2, Walker
IF Gorman, Winn, JJW, Contreras
C Crooks/Herrera
DH Burly/Herrera
Role them out day in and day out. Sink or swim.
any lineup with VS2 isn't the best possible upside
Thank you
Agree. The theory that VSII will become a legit hitter is belied by his regressive performance from college to the minors to MLB. Only 61 career runs scored by a guy with his speed. He's very good defensively, but he has a -1.1 arm (e.g., only 3 assists in MLB).
College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Minors - .264/.344/.381/.725
MLB - .210/.283/.303/.586
Out of the current players in the organization, who would you play in CF the rest of the season?
I'm on record for saying I’d give Nathan Church a shot.
Outside the box idea, what about JJW?
Solid, since it aligns with a common thought.
I've had him as a potential in the OF mix. A Jackson Merrill type at least
until Arenado, or Donovan, or Gorman have their fates determined.
Cards IMO, can't put 2 negative gloves in the OF then compound the issue
with contact pitching. IF even 1 of Herrera, Walker, or Burleson are out there, a
plus glove should be too, IF JJ can be above average out there. IF he is
an above average CF then even better.
Why do we always want to bring up a hopefully future star and put him in a new position?
We did that with Gorman and Walker and now JJ?
Have we not learned that that is not a good idea?
JDW wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 11:29 am
So often hear from the WAR haters that the way to measure offensive production is to add runs scored with RBI's minus HR's (since they count twice) to come up with a number to measure a players offensive production. I used to do the same thing when I was about 10, pouring over the Sunday's Des Moines Register sports section.
Also hear how VS2 doesn't produce much offense. The main 3 OF'ers this season have been Burly, Noot and VS2.
Here's the comp:
Burly in 106 games with 365 AB's has 41 runs scored with 51 RBI's minus 14 HR's = 78
Noot in 94 games and 354 AB's with 51 runs scored plus 40 RBI's -12 HR's = 79
VS2 in 110 games and 337 AB's with 47 runs scored with 33 RBI's minus 5 HR's = 75
Burly gets to hit in the MOTO and some of his production has been at DH and 1B. VS2 hits at the bottom of the order giving him fewer plate appearances to produce. So they're all about the same, which suggest plus base running and SB's can lead to better offensive production even with a weaker bat. Now take into account AB's gidp's and compare defense between the players, and I'd arrive with VS2 as the Cards most productive Cards OF so far this year.
And for the WAR haters, VS2 with a +1.9 bWAR, Burly with a +1.3 bWAR, and Noot with a +1.2 bWAR. Yep.
So yeah, VS2 would be my CF'er IF trying to win.
Burly has bums batting behind him most of the season, so he's not getting hit around most nights. VS bats at the bottom of the order with the 4 most productive hitters in the lineup to follow, so he should score more runs, right. Admittedly his speed and stolen bases help, but the guy doesn't hit enough to justify being a starter, and his noodle arm, oh my. JMHO
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 14:56 pm
OF Donny, VS2, Walker
IF Gorman, Winn, JJW, Contreras
C Crooks/Herrera
DH Burly/Herrera
Role them out day in and day out. Sink or swim.
any lineup with VS2 isn't the best possible upside
Thank you
Agree. The theory that VSII will become a legit hitter is belied by his regressive performance from college to the minors to MLB. Only 61 career runs scored by a guy with his speed. He's very good defensively, but he has a -1.1 arm (e.g., only 3 assists in MLB).
College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Minors - .264/.344/.381/.725
MLB - .210/.283/.303/.586
Out of the current players in the organization, who would you play in CF the rest of the season?
I'm on record for saying I’d give Nathan Church a shot.
Outside the box idea, what about JJW?
Solid, since it aligns with a common thought.
I've had him as a potential in the OF mix. A Jackson Merrill type at least
until Arenado, or Donovan, or Gorman have their fates determined.
Cards IMO, can't put 2 negative gloves in the OF then compound the issue
with contact pitching. IF even 1 of Herrera, Walker, or Burleson are out there, a
plus glove should be too, IF JJ can be above average out there. IF he is
an above average CF then even better.
Why do we always want to bring up a hopefully future star and put him in a new position?
We did that with Gorman and Walker and now JJ?
Have we not learned that that is not a good idea?
Good point, so what you could do instead is move Donovan to LF.
I wouldn't, instead would go with a Donova-Winn-JJW-Contreras infield and a Burleson-VS2-Noot OF with Herrera at DH. Would go with Pozo/Crooks at C.
This is considering going with the best lineup until it's more obvious a 2011 near miracle finish isn't happening. Gotta remember at one point in the 2011 season, the statcast odds for the Cards making the PO's was in the 1% range. It can happen, however unlikely, until the magic number tells you otherwise. Play it out the best you can knowing probably about Sept. 15th or so you can relax into more of a reset/runway/whatever type finish.
JDW wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 11:29 am
So often hear from the WAR haters that the way to measure offensive production is to add runs scored with RBI's minus HR's (since they count twice) to come up with a number to measure a players offensive production. I used to do the same thing when I was about 10, pouring over the Sunday's Des Moines Register sports section.
Also hear how VS2 doesn't produce much offense. The main 3 OF'ers this season have been Burly, Noot and VS2.
Here's the comp:
Burly in 106 games with 365 AB's has 41 runs scored with 51 RBI's minus 14 HR's = 78
Noot in 94 games and 354 AB's with 51 runs scored plus 40 RBI's -12 HR's = 79
VS2 in 110 games and 337 AB's with 47 runs scored with 33 RBI's minus 5 HR's = 75
Burly gets to hit in the MOTO and some of his production has been at DH and 1B. VS2 hits at the bottom of the order giving him fewer plate appearances to produce. So they're all about the same, which suggest plus base running and SB's can lead to better offensive production even with a weaker bat. Now take into account AB's gidp's and compare defense between the players, and I'd arrive with VS2 as the Cards most productive Cards OF so far this year.
And for the WAR haters, VS2 with a +1.9 bWAR, Burly with a +1.3 bWAR, and Noot with a +1.2 bWAR. Yep.
So yeah, VS2 would be my CF'er IF trying to win.
Burly has bums batting behind him most of the season, so he's not getting hit around most nights. VS bats at the bottom of the order with the 4 most productive hitters in the lineup to follow, so he should score more runs, right. Admittedly his speed and stolen bases help, but the guy doesn't hit enough to justify being a starter, and his noodle arm, oh my. JMHO
Look historically how many runs scored by #3 hitters compared to #9 hitters, or #8 hitters before the DH. It's not close very often is it?
Burly often doesn't score b/c he doesn't advance well on the bases, plus lots of his hits are singles. He also is vulnerable to the gidp, which negatively affects runners scoring production ahead and behind him, but that's a pretty much hidden negative that many don't much consider.
Imo, and that's all it is so big deal, is that VS2 has shown enough this year to give him some runway next year. Maybe he improves, but if not, maybe Church as an example can take CF away from him. But that's next year, right now my preference for CF if trying to W is VS2.
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 14:56 pm
OF Donny, VS2, Walker
IF Gorman, Winn, JJW, Contreras
C Crooks/Herrera
DH Burly/Herrera
Role them out day in and day out. Sink or swim.
any lineup with VS2 isn't the best possible upside
Thank you
Agree. The theory that VSII will become a legit hitter is belied by his regressive performance from college to the minors to MLB. Only 61 career runs scored by a guy with his speed. He's very good defensively, but he has a -1.1 arm (e.g., only 3 assists in MLB).
College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Minors - .264/.344/.381/.725
MLB - .210/.283/.303/.586
Out of the current players in the organization, who would you play in CF the rest of the season?
I'm on record for saying I’d give Nathan Church a shot.
Outside the box idea, what about JJW?
Solid, since it aligns with a common thought.
I've had him as a potential in the OF mix. A Jackson Merrill type at least
until Arenado, or Donovan, or Gorman have their fates determined.
Cards IMO, can't put 2 negative gloves in the OF then compound the issue
with contact pitching. IF even 1 of Herrera, Walker, or Burleson are out there, a
plus glove should be too, IF JJ can be above average out there. IF he is
an above average CF then even better.
Why do we always want to bring up a hopefully future star and put him in a new position?
We did that with Gorman and Walker and now JJ?
Have we not learned that that is not a good idea?
With me it is not always.
I think it can be done with very good results too, if
done with athletes.
We must remember how players become 3B in high school or any
position really. Was I an 2B because a stud at 3B lacked 2B agility?
There are examples forever throughout baseball.
LAD and SD, everywhere all over MLB throughout time.
IMO, Walker especially was a marginal
3B probably could have been converted sooner to 1B/RF and
Gorman only average glove at best.
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 14:56 pm
OF Donny, VS2, Walker
IF Gorman, Winn, JJW, Contreras
C Crooks/Herrera
DH Burly/Herrera
Role them out day in and day out. Sink or swim.
any lineup with VS2 isn't the best possible upside
Thank you
Agree. The theory that VSII will become a legit hitter is belied by his regressive performance from college to the minors to MLB. Only 61 career runs scored by a guy with his speed. He's very good defensively, but he has a -1.1 arm (e.g., only 3 assists in MLB).
College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Minors - .264/.344/.381/.725
MLB - .210/.283/.303/.586
Out of the current players in the organization, who would you play in CF the rest of the season?
I'm on record for saying I’d give Nathan Church a shot.
Outside the box idea, what about JJW?
Solid, since it aligns with a common thought.
I've had him as a potential in the OF mix. A Jackson Merrill type at least
until Arenado, or Donovan, or Gorman have their fates determined.
Cards IMO, can't put 2 negative gloves in the OF then compound the issue
with contact pitching. IF even 1 of Herrera, Walker, or Burleson are out there, a
plus glove should be too, IF JJ can be above average out there. IF he is
an above average CF then even better.
Why do we always want to bring up a hopefully future star and put him in a new position?
We did that with Gorman and Walker and now JJ?
Have we not learned that that is not a good idea?
Good point, so what you could do instead is move Donovan to LF.
I wouldn't, instead would go with a Donova-Winn-JJW-Contreras infield and a Burleson-VS2-Noot OF with Herrera at DH. Would go with Pozo/Crooks at C.
This is considering going with the best lineup until it's more obvious a 2011 near miracle finish isn't happening. Gotta remember at one point in the 2011 season, the statcast odds for the Cards making the PO's was in the 1% range. It can happen, however unlikely, until the magic number tells you otherwise. Play it out the best you can knowing probably about Sept. 15th or so you can relax into more of a reset/runway/whatever type finish.
How will Donovan and JJ get meaningful infield time when Arenado returns
to the roster and Gorman gets a runway, along with Saggese running around?
I truly respect the point. Runs, their creation and prevention are fundamental.
Maybe VS2 being close to Noot, Burleson, and even Donovan says more about
those players than it does about VS2 who has the lowest OBP of the group.
He gets himself in scoring position better and scores on hits better.
JDW wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 11:29 am
So often hear from the WAR haters that the way to measure offensive production is to add runs scored with RBI's minus HR's (since they count twice) to come up with a number to measure a players offensive production. I used to do the same thing when I was about 10, pouring over the Sunday's Des Moines Register sports section.
Also hear how VS2 doesn't produce much offense. The main 3 OF'ers this season have been Burly, Noot and VS2.
Here's the comp:
Burly in 106 games with 365 AB's has 41 runs scored with 51 RBI's minus 14 HR's = 78
Noot in 94 games and 354 AB's with 51 runs scored plus 40 RBI's -12 HR's = 79
VS2 in 110 games and 337 AB's with 47 runs scored with 33 RBI's minus 5 HR's = 75
Burly gets to hit in the MOTO and some of his production has been at DH and 1B. VS2 hits at the bottom of the order giving him fewer plate appearances to produce. So they're all about the same, which suggest plus base running and SB's can lead to better offensive production even with a weaker bat. Now take into account AB's gidp's and compare defense between the players, and I'd arrive with VS2 as the Cards most productive Cards OF so far this year.
And for the WAR haters, VS2 with a +1.9 bWAR, Burly with a +1.3 bWAR, and Noot with a +1.2 bWAR. Yep.
So yeah, VS2 would be my CF'er IF trying to win.
Burly has bums batting behind him most of the season, so he's not getting hit around most nights. VS bats at the bottom of the order with the 4 most productive hitters in the lineup to follow, so he should score more runs, right. Admittedly his speed and stolen bases help, but the guy doesn't hit enough to justify being a starter, and his noodle arm, oh my. JMHO
Agree that VSII's runs scored for a speedster with 29 SBs is surprisingly poor. But a .283 career OBP is a big reason, as well as a lack of power.
The Cards' CFs are dead last in MLB OPS. Last. VSII = 373/432 of our CF's PAs.
His defense is #4 for CFs (qualified).
If this team had 7 other good hitters, it's one thing. They can't afford low production (runs/RBI) from a full-time CF. There are others with good defense that must be looked at to see if they are more productive (Church and Baez).
Using Noot and Burly as comparisons is like choosing between three ugly girls for the prom.
JDW wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 11:29 am
So often hear from the WAR haters that the way to measure offensive production is to add runs scored with RBI's minus HR's (since they count twice) to come up with a number to measure a players offensive production. I used to do the same thing when I was about 10, pouring over the Sunday's Des Moines Register sports section.
Also hear how VS2 doesn't produce much offense. The main 3 OF'ers this season have been Burly, Noot and VS2.
Here's the comp:
Burly in 106 games with 365 AB's has 41 runs scored with 51 RBI's minus 14 HR's = 78
Noot in 94 games and 354 AB's with 51 runs scored plus 40 RBI's -12 HR's = 79
VS2 in 110 games and 337 AB's with 47 runs scored with 33 RBI's minus 5 HR's = 75
Burly gets to hit in the MOTO and some of his production has been at DH and 1B. VS2 hits at the bottom of the order giving him fewer plate appearances to produce. So they're all about the same, which suggest plus base running and SB's can lead to better offensive production even with a weaker bat. Now take into account AB's gidp's and compare defense between the players, and I'd arrive with VS2 as the Cards most productive Cards OF so far this year.
And for the WAR haters, VS2 with a +1.9 bWAR, Burly with a +1.3 bWAR, and Noot with a +1.2 bWAR. Yep.
So yeah, VS2 would be my CF'er IF trying to win.
I started to post the war of our three of but chickened out. Thanks for having more courage than I. Work with vs2 on ways to improve his obp and he's good to go.
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 21:16 pm
Shady, I know you won’t do so, but I'll ask anyway. Will you refrain from posting on any of my post or threads. You make do many threads virtually unreadable as you always get caught up in childish back and forth.
Thank you in advance
I'll try to accommodate you. I realize you are a very special poster. Please refrain from any correspondence on my threads and posts as well.
Dopey lineup. You are no better than MO. Dumb as Oli.
You are a gutless weasel. What's your lineup?
Just replace Burleson with Walker you useless garden gnome. Presto. They asked for most upside, that ain't your boy Burly. He has peaked, just getting fatter and slower. Wear it.
This reveals how clueless you are regarding hitting ability.
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 21:16 pm
Shady, I know you won’t do so, but I'll ask anyway. Will you refrain from posting on any of my post or threads. You make do many threads virtually unreadable as you always get caught up in childish back and forth.
Thank you in advance
I wish you luck.
A lot of upside to anonymous forums but the downsides are the trolls(childish & annoying) and posters like Shady & ME-ville who both clearly need professional psychiatric help!
They face zero accountability. Be glad you don’t have to deal with them in real life!
I actually do hope they get that professional help.
Wow Dingaling, aren't you something special?
You posted this at 10:08. Any idea why people are aggravated with you?
Why do so many seem compelled to argue that VSII needs more time to improve his woeful hitting, ignoring the facts?
Just compare his time in AAA to that of Nathan Church, who has almost the same range in CF as Scott and a far superior arm (24 assists in minors vs Scott's 11). Then consider their college careers to see if they were ever elite hitters. It seems obvious:
Scott
AAA - .210 .294 .303 .597 in 362 PAs. Range Factor vs League 2.72 2.62
College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Church
AAA - .332/.396/.500/.896 in 213 PAs. Range Factor vs League 2.70 2.53
College - .341/.405/.515/.920
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025 21:16 pm
Shady, I know you won’t do so, but I'll ask anyway. Will you refrain from posting on any of my post or threads. You make do many threads virtually unreadable as you always get caught up in childish back and forth.
Thank you in advance
I wish you luck.
A lot of upside to anonymous forums but the downsides are the trolls(childish & annoying) and posters like Shady & ME-ville who both clearly need professional psychiatric help!
They face zero accountability. Be glad you don’t have to deal with them in real life!
I actually do hope they get that professional help.
Wow Dingaling, aren't you something special?
You posted this at 10:08. Any idea why people are aggravated with you?
Most likely because I don't let ignorant posters that attack me faze me. They may think they do. But just because I put some of them in their place once in a while doesn't mean they faze me. I don't get intimidated by anonymous bullies on the internet. However, I am going to try again to completely ignore classless posters.
