Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm
HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers
Some stat lines of other guys who were "getting handled by MLB pitchers" in their first taste of the majors...
.220/.281/.390
.179/.263/.345
.228/.285/.330
.238/.295/.400
.232/.284/.319
.224/.257/.352
None of these players have a career wRC+ below 140. BuT tHe StAtS cLeArLy ShOw ThAt ThEy NeEdEd NeW sWiNgS
There’s the story of his 2014, and we can’t know anything more because he died. And this is the only position I’ve taken on it.
He was benched to shorten swing and we never really saw if it worked or not…….end of story
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.
OR, in reality, he just was going through growing pains that many players go through. Patience is a virtue, and some people have little.
He was going to be a beast.
Those other stat lines that showed players clearly getting owned by major league pitching - new swings needed? Attitude adjustments? Bench them to show them whose boss?
You'd think after watching baseball for presumably decades that you'd have some expectation that it's hard to hit in the majors, and prospects, no matter how good they are, have an adjustment period.
You can hang your hat on some dumb comments made over a decade ago by the guy who took the Cardinals organization into the tank... I can't stop you from doing that.
I suppose you could honk the horn til the cows come home about any minor league player you wish………he dies so your story really goes nowhere and has not attachment to reality
I present what he DID do in ML
What the club DID do when they sat him down
What the club DID do when they attempted to shorten his swing
All facts
Also the fact that he was a partier with CMART, had a reputation for being lazy…not working on D and only caring about hitting, and had a drinking issue
But you think despite all that that his minor league prowess would make him a star.
He’s basically the anti-Pujols but somehow you think he would have succeeded…..hanging out with a clown like CMART alone was doom
Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm
HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers
Some stat lines of other guys who were "getting handled by MLB pitchers" in their first taste of the majors...
.220/.281/.390
.179/.263/.345
.228/.285/.330
.238/.295/.400
.232/.284/.319
.224/.257/.352
None of these players have a career wRC+ below 140. BuT tHe StAtS cLeArLy ShOw ThAt ThEy NeEdEd NeW sWiNgS
There’s the story of his 2014, and we can’t know anything more because he died. And this is the only position I’ve taken on it.
He was benched to shorten swing and we never really saw if it worked or not…….end of story
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.
OR, in reality, he just was going through growing pains that many players go through. Patience is a virtue, and some people have little.
He was going to be a beast.
Those other stat lines that showed players clearly getting owned by major league pitching - new swings needed? Attitude adjustments? Bench them to show them whose boss?
You'd think after watching baseball for presumably decades that you'd have some expectation that it's hard to hit in the majors, and prospects, no matter how good they are, have an adjustment period.
You can hang your hat on some dumb comments made over a decade ago by the guy who took the Cardinals organization into the tank... I can't stop you from doing that.
I suppose you could honk the horn til the cows come home about any minor league player you wish………he dies so your story really goes nowhere and has not attachment to reality
I present what he DID do in ML
What the club DID do when they sat him down
What the club DID do when they attempted to shorten his swing
All facts
Also the fact that he was a partier with CMART, had a reputation for being lazy…not working on D and only caring about hitting, and had a drinking issue
But you think despite all that that his minor league prowess would make him a star.
He’s basically the anti-Pujols but somehow you think he would have succeeded…..hanging out with a clown like CMART alone was doom
How do you really feel? Anyone else’s grave you feel like stomping on, or just this one?
FWIW, he worked on defense, but he couldn’t run. The org mishandled his injury, bringing him back when he was clearly compromised, only to quickly pivot and rebuild his ankle. You were one of those folks judging his defense and speed at its trough.
What about all those other slash lines? Hideous, right? How on earth could any one of them have gotten better??!
imetsatchelpaige wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 11:27 am
I am as upbeat on JJ as anyone here. Great potential.
Just like Walker.
The quotes from pro talking heads and folks here were pretty clear: he was to be the second coming. There was no reason for him to stay in AAA. He was the power bat we needed. He was past ready. The next AP.
He may yet pan out and live up to the hype. But that is not now, and it hadn’t been the case. I witnessed him haplessly flailing in SD.
So, two things. We burnish our Faberge eggs and admire them on the mantle, as they tarnish. Others here have pointed out the unwillingness if the FO to trade players at the right time-or at all. Hopefully Bloom changes that.
And no, I am not suggesting trading JJ (although Walker may at long last may be on the block), but my sense is people expect JJ to succeed at this level immediately.
And he may. But the book will go out on him and there will be regression. He may well be the cornerstone we all hope.
But it will not be automatic and ala’ Walker, there are no guarantees.
Nick Kurtz succeeded immediately. .304/23/61rbi. JJ was taken 2 slots after, so yeah, expectations are pretty high.
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:11 pm
What did Taveras, Walker and Gorman all have in common?
Extremely Long swings, that don't work at the MLB level.
With the average MLB heater over 95, you have to be short to the ball and track the ball.
JJW is exactly the type of hitter that works in MLB nowadays.
Taveras was nothing like Gorman or Walker.
He had elite bat to ball skill. Neither of them do. Why on earth would you group them?
In Taveras brief stay in majors, he repeatedly was beat by high heat.
Red flags galore with Taveras, he was a horrible fielder and baserunner.
I don't think he would have panned out either.
I disagree.
a. Taveras had an extremely long follow-through but his swing was actually short to the ball, at least according to the expert analyses I read.
b. He was definitely hampered by two serious ankle injuries necessitating surgery, and his perhaps exaggerated but understandable fear of reinjury.
c. His hitting improved every month he was in MLB.
D. One of his minor league managers (I have forgotten which one) said, paraphrasing, the thing about Oscar is that he always figures it out. And I believe he would have. We’ll never know, but I think he would have been an excellent major league hitter.
Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm
HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers
Some stat lines of other guys who were "getting handled by MLB pitchers" in their first taste of the majors...
.220/.281/.390
.179/.263/.345
.228/.285/.330
.238/.295/.400
.232/.284/.319
.224/.257/.352
None of these players have a career wRC+ below 140. BuT tHe StAtS cLeArLy ShOw ThAt ThEy NeEdEd NeW sWiNgS
There’s the story of his 2014, and we can’t know anything more because he died. And this is the only position I’ve taken on it.
He was benched to shorten swing and we never really saw if it worked or not…….end of story
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.
OR, in reality, he just was going through growing pains that many players go through. Patience is a virtue, and some people have little.
He was going to be a beast.
Those other stat lines that showed players clearly getting owned by major league pitching - new swings needed? Attitude adjustments? Bench them to show them whose boss?
You'd think after watching baseball for presumably decades that you'd have some expectation that it's hard to hit in the majors, and prospects, no matter how good they are, have an adjustment period.
You can hang your hat on some dumb comments made over a decade ago by the guy who took the Cardinals organization into the tank... I can't stop you from doing that.
I suppose you could honk the horn til the cows come home about any minor league player you wish………he dies so your story really goes nowhere and has not attachment to reality
I present what he DID do in ML
What the club DID do when they sat him down
What the club DID do when they attempted to shorten his swing
All facts
Also the fact that he was a partier with CMART, had a reputation for being lazy…not working on D and only caring about hitting, and had a drinking issue
But you think despite all that that his minor league prowess would make him a star.
He’s basically the anti-Pujols but somehow you think he would have succeeded…..hanging out with a clown like CMART alone was doom
How do you really feel? Anyone else’s grave you feel like stomping on, or just this one?
FWIW, he worked on defense, but he couldn’t run. The org mishandled his injury, bringing him back when he was clearly compromised, only to quickly pivot and rebuild his ankle. You were one of those folks judging his defense and speed at its trough.
What about all those other slash lines? Hideous, right? How on earth could any one of them have gotten better??!
