cardstatman wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 16:23 pm
Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.
If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.
Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.
We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.
We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.
I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.
You were NOT getting the haul you think for Fedde and Helsley. 2024 was career years for both. If you feared a regression, so did the other teams. Why trade for Fedde and give up a quality prospect, when for less money, you could sign a Jose Quintana? Look what the Brewers got for Williams. The Cardinals did MUCH better when they traded Helsley.
Quintana for $4M was a steal even though he is 36. That's not the market rate but the Brewers are actually intelligent.
They took advantage of him since he had not signed by March 5th.
If Fedde was worthless as you claim, then why did we trade Edman for him?
If Edman was worthless, then why did the Dodgers sign him for 5 yrs/$59.56M?
cardstatman wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 16:23 pm
Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.
If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.
Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.
We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.
We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.
I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.
You were NOT getting the haul you think for Fedde and Helsley. 2024 was career years for both. If you feared a regression, so did the other teams. Why trade for Fedde and give up a quality prospect, when for less money, you could sign a Jose Quintana? Look what the Brewers got for Williams. The Cardinals did MUCH better when they traded Helsley.
lol that’s hilarious if u believe that they had more value after Fedde sucked and was DFA and helsely surpassed his blown saves total from last season before the Allstar break and hitters were hitting .400 against his fast ball and lead off hitters hitting over .400 against him and he only had two months of control instead of a year and a team could no longer offer him QO when they trade for him. I don’t think you are actually that delusional or know that little about how front offices work. I get you defend the front office but don’t be delusional about it. Brewers could have got way more if they wanted prospects they didn’t want prospects they wanted a veteran starter who could help them now
rockondlouie wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 10:16 am
I've been saying now that the inept POBO is gone at seasons end and we've got a bright POBO who can both walk (build the farm system) & chew gum (build a competitive ML roster) at the same time.
My hope is BDWJr gives Bloom the payroll he needs to add pieces that may be many years away from coming from within.
Doing this IS NOT going back to the "old" way!
Bloom has spent two years upgrading the minor league system, it's (hopefully) now up to speed and running smoothly.
R. Cerfolio by all counts is also a massive upgrade, he can oversee things below and make sure our prospects are getting everything they need to reach their potential (something lacking under Mo).
If Bloom can pull off a great trade (starting pitcher) or two (offensive OF'er) this winter and BDWJr gives him some money to spend WISELY (unlike Mo) to fill in the gaps, then we could see the Cardinals back on the right track much sooner than later.
JMO
I agree, Rock. I've been saying the addition of one good SP and a good bat could make this team competitive next year. Of course the addition of a strong manager would also help.
What do you mean by competitive?
Competitive for a Wild Card? For a playoff spot? This is a bad baseball team. That was true before the deadline deals. Adding a bat and a SP isn't gonna make this team a serious WS contender.
Did i say they would be World Series bound? They could be competitive. As in potentially being in a race for a playoff spot. Which would be good considering they are in the midst of a rebuild.
You're buying into the league's bull[shirt] system of adding playoff teams until almost everyone can be in contention. Screw that. If the team isn't good enough to be a serious WS contender, they might just as well be 70-92. That way at least they can focus on building for another year.
Oh good grief. What the hell qualifies as a World Series contender? BEING IN THE [fork]ing POSTSEASON!!! There are multiple 100 win teams that didn't make the WS. The 2006 Cardinals won 83 games. Do I think the organization should strive for mediocrity and hope to qualify? No! But to do it during a rebuild would be good. I don't think they (or any other team), would say "We don't consider ourselves World Series contenders, so we decline the spot we earned."
We could wait 100 years for another Cardinals team to win from so far back.
You're pointing to an extreme outlier and suggesting the we build out hopes around another miracle. Yes. Yes. Anything is possible. You might toss 100 coins and get 100 heads. You could get struck by lighting--twice. You could meet a attractive woman who will love you despite you being broke. All very unlikely and yet possible. But it's much more likely that you'll see your congressman reelected or end up a millionaire.
You can build a team with kite string and bailing wire and hope for the best. It's a plan.. But it's much better to build a WS caliber team because better teams win more championships than (lucky) weak teams. That's a fact. You can look it up.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 10:16 am
I've been saying now that the inept POBO is gone at seasons end and we've got a bright POBO who can both walk (build the farm system) & chew gum (build a competitive ML roster) at the same time.
My hope is BDWJr gives Bloom the payroll he needs to add pieces that may be many years away from coming from within.
Doing this IS NOT going back to the "old" way!
Bloom has spent two years upgrading the minor league system, it's (hopefully) now up to speed and running smoothly.
R. Cerfolio by all counts is also a massive upgrade, he can oversee things below and make sure our prospects are getting everything they need to reach their potential (something lacking under Mo).
If Bloom can pull off a great trade (starting pitcher) or two (offensive OF'er) this winter and BDWJr gives him some money to spend WISELY (unlike Mo) to fill in the gaps, then we could see the Cardinals back on the right track much sooner than later.
JMO
I agree, Rock. I've been saying the addition of one good SP and a good bat could make this team competitive next year. Of course the addition of a strong manager would also help.
What do you mean by competitive?
Competitive for a Wild Card? For a playoff spot? This is a bad baseball team. That was true before the deadline deals. Adding a bat and a SP isn't gonna make this team a serious WS contender.
Did i say they would be World Series bound? They could be competitive. As in potentially being in a race for a playoff spot. Which would be good considering they are in the midst of a rebuild.
You're buying into the league's bull[shirt] system of adding playoff teams until almost everyone can be in contention. Screw that. If the team isn't good enough to be a serious WS contender, they might just as well be 70-92. That way at least they can focus on building for another year.
Oh good grief. What the hell qualifies as a World Series contender? BEING IN THE [fork]ing POSTSEASON!!! There are multiple 100 win teams that didn't make the WS. The 2006 Cardinals won 83 games. Do I think the organization should strive for mediocrity and hope to qualify? No! But to do it during a rebuild would be good. I don't think they (or any other team), would say "We don't consider ourselves World Series contenders, so we decline the spot we earned."
We could wait 100 years for another Cardinals team to win from so far back.
You're pointing to an extreme outlier and suggesting the we build out hopes around another miracle. Yes. Yes. Anything is possible. You might toss 100 coins and get 100 heads. You could get struck by lighting--twice. You could meet a attractive woman who will love you despite you being broke. All very unlikely and yet possible. But it's much more likely that you'll see your congressman reelected or end up a millionaire.
You can build a team with kite string and bailing wire and hope for the best. It's a plan.. But it's much better to build a WS caliber team because better teams win more championships than (lucky) weak teams. That's a fact. You can look it up.
Wow, you totally missed my point. I said that making the playoffs DURING A REBUILD would be a good thing. It gives you a chance at a championship. Nowhere did I say aim to be a suck team and hope for luck. I simply pointed out that the postseason can be a (bleep) shoot. Obviously everyone would like to have the 2004 roster. But right now, that's not happening. No way DeWitt opens the wallet to sign every top free agent this winter. And Bloom cant trade the current roster for top stars.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 13:38 pm
To do a deep rebuild, Houston took at least four years (2011-2014), Atlanta at least three years (2015-2017), Philadelphia at least five years (2013-2017), etc.
So this might be Year 1 of a 4-5 year process before they can be a 90+ win team regularly.
BDWJr would be near 90 years by then
I don't see him wanting to wait that long or risk not being around to see any "POTENTIAL" 90+ win rebuild.
I think he speeds it up giving Bloom more payroll to work with than many think.
The draft is already being shaped by Bloom and his minor league player development system has been in place now for nearing two years.
With the teams resources compared to others in the NLC it theoretically shouldn't take long at all.
Problem is you have no basis to start from.
No position player to lead you and no crop of young pitching arms ready to lead a resurgence.
In 2028 after the 2027 work stoppage perhaps Liberatore, Matthews and Doyle can head up a starting rotation and a trade or signing for a legitimate thumper in the middle of the lineup is somehow acquired.
Until then they'll keep shaking hands with the Pirates near the bottom of the division.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 10:16 am
I've been saying now that the inept POBO is gone at seasons end and we've got a bright POBO who can both walk (build the farm system) & chew gum (build a competitive ML roster) at the same time.
My hope is BDWJr gives Bloom the payroll he needs to add pieces that may be many years away from coming from within.
Doing this IS NOT going back to the "old" way!
Bloom has spent two years upgrading the minor league system, it's (hopefully) now up to speed and running smoothly.
R. Cerfolio by all counts is also a massive upgrade, he can oversee things below and make sure our prospects are getting everything they need to reach their potential (something lacking under Mo).
If Bloom can pull off a great trade (starting pitcher) or two (offensive OF'er) this winter and BDWJr gives him some money to spend WISELY (unlike Mo) to fill in the gaps, then we could see the Cardinals back on the right track much sooner than later.
JMO
I agree, Rock. I've been saying the addition of one good SP and a good bat could make this team competitive next year. Of course the addition of a strong manager would also help.
What do you mean by competitive?
Competitive for a Wild Card? For a playoff spot? This is a bad baseball team. That was true before the deadline deals. Adding a bat and a SP isn't gonna make this team a serious WS contender.
Did i say they would be World Series bound? They could be competitive. As in potentially being in a race for a playoff spot. Which would be good considering they are in the midst of a rebuild.
You're buying into the league's bull[shirt] system of adding playoff teams until almost everyone can be in contention. Screw that. If the team isn't good enough to be a serious WS contender, they might just as well be 70-92. That way at least they can focus on building for another year.
Oh good grief. What the hell qualifies as a World Series contender? BEING IN THE [fork]ing POSTSEASON!!! There are multiple 100 win teams that didn't make the WS. The 2006 Cardinals won 83 games. Do I think the organization should strive for mediocrity and hope to qualify? No! But to do it during a rebuild would be good. I don't think they (or any other team), would say "We don't consider ourselves World Series contenders, so we decline the spot we earned."
We could wait 100 years for another Cardinals team to win from so far back.
You're pointing to an extreme outlier and suggesting the we build out hopes around another miracle. Yes. Yes. Anything is possible. You might toss 100 coins and get 100 heads. You could get struck by lighting--twice. You could meet a attractive woman who will love you despite you being broke. All very unlikely and yet possible. But it's much more likely that you'll see your congressman reelected or end up a millionaire.
You can build a team with kite string and bailing wire and hope for the best. It's a plan.. But it's much better to build a WS caliber team because better teams win more championships than (lucky) weak teams. That's a fact. You can look it up.
Wow, you totally missed my point. I said that making the playoffs DURING A REBUILD would be a good thing. It gives you a chance at a championship. Nowhere did I say aim to be a suck team and hope for luck. I simply pointed out that the postseason can be a (bleep) shoot. Obviously everyone would like to have the 2004 roster. But right now, that's not happening. No way DeWitt opens the wallet to sign every top free agent this winter. And Bloom cant trade the current roster for top stars.
The team has limited resources and and even more limited willingness to spend those resources. Taking a shot by acquiring a couple of extra players would cost millions and those dollars would directly deducted from the rebuild budget.
Bottom line: The rebuild will go faster and better if we keep focused on the rebuild. And if this team, as is, somehow makes the playoffs...well great, but the FO shouldn't spend any more than a minimal amount on the effort.
This organization is not super poor. jeez how much has dewitt pocketed the past two seasons? he, as every team, gets 200 mil from MLB league distribution. he makes bucks off his real estate that is the goal, not the team which simply draws to fill it. If he wasnt making money he would sell the team to stop losing money as trying for World series is not a focus. This team will be back in it when they sign a good pitcher, really no reason to wait on the inevitable that they will have to do. Some fantasy that Bloom will produce the Hudson, Mulder Zieto pitching or something.....not happening. The old model is the model that will be resorted to , except dont be exceptionally bad at contracts and extensions as Mo was. Houston "rebuilt" but got Verlander .. The cards have plenty of money to sign a good pitcher for next season , that would make the team significantly different. There is zero reason to wait except you are pocketing extra money. Getting the pitcher via free agency effects nothing in rebuilding the minors but maybe we hear less overhype of prospects that wont be significant difference makers. Also, you can advertise and sell more tickets, raise spirits, with advertising 2026 with Libs, New Guy, and Gray anchoring the rotation.
cardstatman wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 16:23 pm
Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.
If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.
Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.
We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.
We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.
I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.
You were NOT getting the haul you think for Fedde and Helsley. 2024 was career years for both. If you feared a regression, so did the other teams. Why trade for Fedde and give up a quality prospect, when for less money, you could sign a Jose Quintana? Look what the Brewers got for Williams. The Cardinals did MUCH better when they traded Helsley.
Quintana for $4M was a steal even though he is 36. That's not the market rate but the Brewers are actually intelligent.
They took advantage of him since he had not signed by March 5th.
If Fedde was worthless as you claim, then why did we trade Edman for him?
If Edman was worthless, then why did the Dodgers sign him for 5 yrs/$59.56M?
Edman had not played all year and was scheduled to make $9 million this year at a position the team had a load of players. So, not only did they get the starter they wanted, but they moved about $1.5-2 million off the payroll. That’s why.
Answer to your second question: the Dodgers have money to burn. Edman fills the position held by Kiki Hernandez and Chris Taylor.
cardstatman wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 16:23 pm
Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.
If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.
Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.
We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.
We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.
I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.
You were NOT getting the haul you think for Fedde and Helsley. 2024 was career years for both. If you feared a regression, so did the other teams. Why trade for Fedde and give up a quality prospect, when for less money, you could sign a Jose Quintana? Look what the Brewers got for Williams. The Cardinals did MUCH better when they traded Helsley.
lol that’s hilarious if u believe that they had more value after Fedde sucked and was DFA and helsely surpassed his blown saves total from last season before the Allstar break and hitters were hitting .400 against his fast ball and lead off hitters hitting over .400 against him and he only had two months of control instead of a year and a team could no longer offer him QO when they trade for him. I don’t think you are actually that delusional or know that little about how front offices work. I get you defend the front office but don’t be delusional about it. Brewers could have got way more if they wanted prospects they didn’t want prospects they wanted a veteran starter who could help them now
Actually, the value they received was not THAT much less. On the other hand, had either or both proved that 2024 was not a fluke, the return would have been much higher. If you don’t think that was the gamble worth taking, neither did the teams you wanted to trade with. Nestor was quite the return, wasn’t he? He was the BEST starter they could get for Williams? My god, if the return for Helsley turns out THAT bad, the CICU’s around STL will be busy.
Bully4you wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 08:13 am
We have to give Chaim Bloom the benefit of the doubt.
Farm system is pretty average right now.
I think we have one tier 1 guy in JJ
We have one tier 2 guy in Doyle.
Let's assume payroll is maintained between $140M-$160M.
How long of a rebuild do you anticipate?
I mean, when do you see multiple years of divisional championships coming?
I have to be honest, it seems like it could take at least 4-5 years to rebuild this ship.
Wondering what you guys think.
So, assume the following:
1. M Winn ups his WAR to 5.5
2. Management is willing to have a payroll at around $160M
3. JJ and Doyle are for real and become 4 WAR players or better.
4. We get lucky with a couple of other current young players such as Walker, Gorman, Burleson or Scott.
5. Bernal is the everyday catcher by 2026.
6. Libbey, Mathews, McGreevy are all starters in the rotation.
The time table depends on their strategy if it’s a continuation of Mos sustained mediocrity strategy where they sign a mediocre starter in the offseason maybe a hope and prayer reliever and keep Donovan and burly instead of selling high on them then yea the mediocrity will last a few more years.
Well, I'm ready for the JJ/Bloom revolution.
It should start ASAP.
Rebuild: Where are we right now-How long will it take based on assumptions
The Cardinals opted for a more subdued approach, dealing expiring contracts like closer Ryan Helsley and relievers Steven Matz and Phil Maton for future assets
"We were not motivated to move players that we had under control unless we were, to put it mildly, blown away. Just keep stacking em up$$$$$
ForumPolice wrote: ↑02 Aug 2025 08:19 am
They won't even truly begin their rebuild until after the guaranteed lockout coming next year.
I only sum what agree with that. They already started a rebuild to disguise cutting payroll. They will continue to collect young talent through the lockout. Dewitt will use the results of the lockout to determine if and when the rebuild is allowed to start increasing payroll.
If he wins and there is a salary cap, he will allow them to start spending but never exceeding what we previously used as spending levels.
If nothing changes with the economic gap in payrolls then DeWitt will turn this into something worse than the 70s era Cardinals.
