We finished last 2 years ago. Now a dump and rebuild?

[Carp4Cy]

Another rebuild? Did I miss the first one?

We got nine prospects for six or seven MLB players in 2023. Not sure what good it’s done.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

We got nine prospects for six or seven MLB players in 2023. Not sure what good it’s done.

Not a rebuild.

[Absolut]

3 years ago. Ct. Cut Flaherty! He’s unfocused.

Today. We got nothing for him. Mo blows.

[Carp4Cy]

We got nine prospects for six or seven MLB players in 2023. Not sure what good it’s done.

Not a rebuild.

"Rebuild" means to actually build, not just demolish. Where is the quality building being done?

[ICCFIM2]

And that load of prospects Mo got in that selloff two years ago have amounted to a BIG FAT NOTHING!

Why I'm not confident he'll get much for Helsley, Maton, Matz etal if they're dealt unless C. Bloom is making the call.

That is not entirely true. Sagesse may be OK, Roby may be decent. King pitched OK last year. But, we were not trading A list guys last year. If they trade Helsley, they need to get someone better than Roby in return.

When it comes to trading a player like Donovan, who is an established ML player who should average around 3BWar per year, the haul needs to be spectacular. When teams like the Dodgers say they are interested, I am not certain how well I like their top 10 prospects. If they do want a trade, I want 3 of their top 10. They only have 1 pitcher in that group and several OFs, but they are all 2027 ETA. I want 2 of them.

You are right, none of the players we get in a deal like I just described may turn out to be good. But, we would have added 3 players that could be average to above avg ML players. When you look at baseball trade value, the Dodgers have some OF prospect, Zyhir Hope, who is in high A ball and has a 2027 ETA who they give the same trade value as Donovan. The proposed trades give us him, a lower pitching prospect and a lottery ticket. While the theoretical trade values match up, no way if I am the Cards do I make that trade. He could easily become the next Jordan Walker and we have nothing. I want him, plus their #1 prospect, plus their #6 prospect, a SP prospect. While the trade values I sure say that is an overpay for Donovan, if the Dodgers want another WS title and think Donovan gets them there, that is the price. But, the payoff is going to be years away...

[mattmitchl44]

Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

"Rebuild" means to actually build, not just demolish. Where is the quality building being done?

They never finished demolishing either. The building has started where it should, within the minor league system. It started last offseason. And it's going to take awhile. They could have sped up the process had they finished demolishing, but they couldn't commit to it, so it's going to take longer to build what they're hoping to build.

[sikeston bulldog2]

"Rebuild" means to actually build, not just demolish. Where is the quality building being done?

They never finished demolishing either. The building has started where it should, within the minor league system. It started last offseason. And it's going to take awhile. They could have sped up the process had they finished demolishing, but they couldn't commit to it, so it's going to take longer to build what they're hoping to build.

I agree a bit. I think it’s been a 2-3 year commmit. This is year one. I don’t think it’s taken longer, as we haven’t went thru a deadline under this plan. See what happens here.

I think they wanted Matz and Mik gone last off season to complete phase one. That still must happen.

[Goldfan]

Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

And yet this is the very foundation upon which most of CT think Bloom is going to quickly rebuild this mess. It unrealistic, fantasy, and has NEVER happened in the history of Cardinals baseball without veteran trades and FA……which apparently BDW can no longer afford

[sikeston bulldog2]

Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

Like mikitary recruiting. Call 100 people. Make 10 appointments. Test 5. Physical 3. Enlist 1.

Build a huge pool in from which to vet from.

[stlbirdlover]

Yeah and how many of those players that Mo got are on the Cards roster? John King and Thomas Saggese now and then and neither one has been great!

[mattmitchl44]

Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

And yet this is the very foundation upon which most of CT think Bloom is going to quickly rebuild this mess. It unrealistic, fantasy, and has NEVER happened in the history of Cardinals baseball without veteran trades and FA……which apparently BDW can no longer afford

They can reevaluate what they can afford to add in terms of expensive veterans AFTER they reestablish the necessary core of young cost controlled players.

[3dender]

"Rebuild" means to actually build, not just demolish. Where is the quality building being done?

They never finished demolishing either. The building has started where it should, within the minor league system. It started last offseason. And it's going to take awhile. They could have sped up the process had they finished demolishing, but they couldn't commit to it, so it's going to take longer to build what they're hoping to build.

I agree a bit. I think it’s been a 2-3 year commmit. This is year one. I don’t think it’s taken longer, as we haven’t went thru a deadline under this plan. See what happens here.

I think they wanted Matz and Mik gone last off season to complete phase one. That still must happen.

This is year 3, it started in 2023 when they lost 90+ games, they just didn't want to admit it and didn't come up with a plan until two years later.

[mattmitchl44]

"Rebuild" means to actually build, not just demolish. Where is the quality building being done?

They never finished demolishing either. The building has started where it should, within the minor league system. It started last offseason. And it's going to take awhile. They could have sped up the process had they finished demolishing, but they couldn't commit to it, so it's going to take longer to build what they're hoping to build.

I agree a bit. I think it’s been a 2-3 year commmit. This is year one. I don’t think it’s taken longer, as we haven’t went thru a deadline under this plan. See what happens here.

I think they wanted Matz and Mik gone last off season to complete phase one. That still must happen.

This is year 3, it started in 2023 when they lost 90+ games, they just didn't want to admit it and didn't come up with a plan until two years later.

When they didn't find a way to move Goldschmidt and Arenado back in 2023, they certainly put it off by at least one year.

[rockondlouie]

And that load of prospects Mo got in that selloff two years ago have amounted to a BIG FAT NOTHING!

Why I'm not confident he'll get much for Helsley, Maton, Matz etal if they're dealt unless C. Bloom is making the call.

That is not entirely true. Sagesse may be OK, Roby may be decent. King pitched OK last year. But, we were not trading A list guys last year. If they trade Helsley, they need to get someone better than Roby in return.

When it comes to trading a player like Donovan, who is an established ML player who should average around 3BWar per year, the haul needs to be spectacular. When teams like the Dodgers say they are interested, I am not certain how well I like their top 10 prospects. If they do want a trade, I want 3 of their top 10. They only have 1 pitcher in that group and several OFs, but they are all 2027 ETA. I want 2 of them.

You are right, none of the players we get in a deal like I just described may turn out to be good. But, we would have added 3 players that could be average to above avg ML players. When you look at baseball trade value, the Dodgers have some OF prospect, Zyhir Hope, who is in high A ball and has a 2027 ETA who they give the same trade value as Donovan. The proposed trades give us him, a lower pitching prospect and a lottery ticket. While the theoretical trade values match up, no way if I am the Cards do I make that trade. He could easily become the next Jordan Walker and we have nothing. I want him, plus their #1 prospect, plus their #6 prospect, a SP prospect. While the trade values I sure say that is an overpay for Donovan, if the Dodgers want another WS title and think Donovan gets them there, that is the price. But, the payoff is going to be years away...

100% true

NONE of the players Mo acquired in the last fire sale have amounted to anything.

Saggese (.228 .259 .331 .590) = JAG
Roby = INJURED all the time
King (5.31 ERA) = DFA material

None of the prospects Mo acquired in that selloff will ever be "average", re: 100 OPS+ players.

That said, let's hope C. Bloom has some say in this (hopefully) selloff of Helsley, Maton, Matz and ?????

[Cardinals4Life]

Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

You don't have to have an entire roster full of them. You still have to supplement your holes with some FAs and or trades. You have to have some vets too.

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.