RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.
But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.
Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.
Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.
Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first
Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.
The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.
$200 million would put them in about 9th place in payroll.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.
But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.
Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.
Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.
Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.
For the umpteenth time…it wasn’t about being honest or not when it came to Fedde and Helsley. It was about maximizing their value. Neither had the track record that would bring maximum value. Both needed to prove that 2024 was not a fluke. If we were worried about regression, don’t you think other teams would be? Look at the weak return the Brewers got for Williams. Fedde’s value now isn’t much lower as he didn’t have that much to begin with. Had his season been reversed, had these last 4 starts come at the beginning instead of now, his value would be higher. Helsley, while not as successful as last year, will be in high demand, primarily because he’s stayed healthy.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first
Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.
The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.
$200 million would put them in about 9th place in payroll.
Sounds about right. And if they spent it wisely, they’d probably be rewarded with 3.3M in attendance to offset the increased expense, along with more FanDuel subscribers, more jerseys sold, more sodas, etc.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first
Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.
The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.
$200 million would put them in about 9th place in payroll.
Sounds about right. And if they spent it wisely, they’d probably be rewarded with 3.3M in attendance to offset the increased expense, along with more FanDuel subscribers, more jerseys sold, more sodas, etc.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first
Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.
The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.
$200 million would put them in about 9th place in payroll.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first
Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.
The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.
$200 million would put them in about 9th place in payroll.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first
Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.
The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.
$200 million would put them in about 9th place in payroll.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.
But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.
Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.
Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.
Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.
For the umpteenth time…it wasn’t about being honest or not when it came to Fedde and Helsley. It was about maximizing their value. Neither had the track record that would bring maximum value. Both needed to prove that 2024 was not a fluke. If we were worried about regression, don’t you think other teams would be? Look at the weak return the Brewers got for Williams. Fedde’s value now isn’t much lower as he didn’t have that much to begin with. Had his season been reversed, had these last 4 starts come at the beginning instead of now, his value would be higher. Helsley, while not as successful as last year, will be in high demand, primarily because he’s stayed healthy.
I have no idea what you mean by being honest. So I'll pass on that.
Fedde's value has plummeted. Teams would have taken a flyer on him based on maybe he found something and he is inexpensive as a risk. Now he has been exposed and doesn't return much. Helsley is a bit lower but will still bring back a prospect. Mind you since it's for 1/3 of a season less than last December.
As for a poor return on Williams that meme has been debunked multiple times. They got a very nice return.
Caleb Durbin - 3 years of pre-arb control for their starting 3B. 108 OPS+ and 2.1 WAR for league minimum. VERY valuable.
Cortes - throw in that has sucked.
Cash -always nice.
MLB ready every day players are more valuable in trade than prospects a few years out and STL could have converted Helsley for a solid pair of prospects back in December. Fedde likely for one.
Most baseball pundits (like the ones that have online chats on MLBrumors.com) thought STL was crazy to hang on to them if they were truly rebuilding. I agree with them. Should have converted them to prospects when their value was highest.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.
But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.
Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.
Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.
Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.
For the umpteenth time…it wasn’t about being honest or not when it came to Fedde and Helsley. It was about maximizing their value. Neither had the track record that would bring maximum value. Both needed to prove that 2024 was not a fluke. If we were worried about regression, don’t you think other teams would be? Look at the weak return the Brewers got for Williams. Fedde’s value now isn’t much lower as he didn’t have that much to begin with. Had his season been reversed, had these last 4 starts come at the beginning instead of now, his value would be higher. Helsley, while not as successful as last year, will be in high demand, primarily because he’s stayed healthy.
Helsley didnt need to prove anything. Who invents this baloney. He was well established with incredible 2024 (league leader franchise record) and 2022 (0.742 whip) years. 2023 about half season total with injury, stats ok still with 1.06 whip in 2023. Absolutely nothing left for Helsley to prove. There is a story about Mo saying he wasnt going to trade RH, seems hard to know Mo true intent with RH .
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
I would suggest that the Cards did get to see what they got in Liberatore, Sagesse, Herrera, McGreevy, Pages, Pozo, Burleson, and Victor Scott. With Arenado still at third base, we didn’t really get to see Gorman as a regular starter. Walker’s injuries kept him from getting enough full-time action as well. With them both in their walk years, I think the cards front office hoped for the best with Mikolas and Fedde. Obviously, they both flopped. In August and September, I’d like to see what we’ve got with Svanson, Granillo and Graceffo.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.
But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.
Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.
Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.
Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.
For the umpteenth time…it wasn’t about being honest or not when it came to Fedde and Helsley. It was about maximizing their value. Neither had the track record that would bring maximum value. Both needed to prove that 2024 was not a fluke. If we were worried about regression, don’t you think other teams would be? Look at the weak return the Brewers got for Williams. Fedde’s value now isn’t much lower as he didn’t have that much to begin with. Had his season been reversed, had these last 4 starts come at the beginning instead of now, his value would be higher. Helsley, while not as successful as last year, will be in high demand, primarily because he’s stayed healthy.
I have no idea what you mean by being honest. So I'll pass on that.
Fedde's value has plummeted. Teams would have taken a flyer on him based on maybe he found something and he is inexpensive as a risk. Now he has been exposed and doesn't return much. Helsley is a bit lower but will still bring back a prospect. Mind you since it's for 1/3 of a season less than last December.
As for a poor return on Williams that meme has been debunked multiple times. They got a very nice return.
Caleb Durbin - 3 years of pre-arb control for their starting 3B. 108 OPS+ and 2.1 WAR for league minimum. VERY valuable.
Cortes - throw in that has sucked.
Cash -always nice.
MLB ready every day players are more valuable in trade than prospects a few years out and STL could have converted Helsley for a solid pair of prospects back in December. Fedde likely for one.
Most baseball pundits (like the ones that have online chats on MLBrumors.com) thought STL was crazy to hang on to them if they were truly rebuilding. I agree with them. Should have converted them to prospects when their value was highest.
It was widely reported that Mo much to the surprise of fellow GM’s was not even listening to offers on Helsley or Feddee. His one and only focus was trading Arenado, he even admitted it with his famous list of top 3 priorities. I’m not sure he will even very active at the trade deadline even if the Cards have a very slim chance at the playoffs. Hopefully he will work with Bloom and make the moves best for the future of this franchise even if he won’t be a part of it ongoing.
kyace wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 12:32 pm
It was widely reported that Mo much to the surprise of fellow GM’s was not even listening to offers on Helsley or Feddee. His one and only focus was trading Arenado, he even admitted it with his famous list of top 3 priorities. I’m not sure he will even very active at the trade deadline even if the Cards have a very slim chance at the playoffs. Hopefully he will work with Bloom and make the moves best for the future of this franchise even if he won’t be a part of it ongoing.
Yeah I was baffled. I mean OK keep them if you think you are a contender. They have straddled the line going no where in the end IMO.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.
But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.
Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.
Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.
Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.
I could see Mikolas still being here for depth, an arm. You basically would have to pay someone to take him. Matz had a little trade value, so did Fedde. McGreevy has been ready. If you find yourself short, you can always find a cheap arm looking for a major league gig.
My point is this, they never were serious about a true reset. In a true reset you get what you can for expiring assets you don't intend to keep and can trade. You try younger arms, if like you said, they initially fail, you pick up a cheap arm looking for a gig or a cash considerations like Texas did with Adolis Garcia. What you dont do is waste any remaining trade value of those you can trade on a season they effectively said was going nowhere.
I get what you are saying, but I think we could all see that this team simply did not have the talent level to make a difference. When you are stuck on hoping the playoff bar is low enough to sneak in, thats really not enough to justify hedging on a reset.
RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm
You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.
To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.
It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first
Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.
The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.
$200 million would put them in about 9th place in payroll.
