Anyone concerned the Cardinals are morphing into a Small Market Team?

[bccardsfan]

I mean, look at the attendance.
Then look at the unwillingness to spend.
Then look at the low TV revenues.
Then look at the number of Free Agents that decided "no way".
Then look at the dwindling city and surrounding areas.

Man, they used to be a powerhouse.
What the hell happened?
A few losing seasons doesn't explain everything.
How long before they could turn into the Indians or Brewers?

I find it hard to believe that the dEwitts would want it this way.
Because I'd think there'd be a correlation of team market value to perception/performance.

No the Dewitt’s would not want this to happen. There have just been some very poor decisions made combined with some bad luck.

Payroll is lower but in the past several years payroll levels have been good enough. It’s not how much you spend but how you spend it. Honestly most of the free agent acquisitions have not been poor decisions but some big money has been spent on players that underperformed.

However it has been a very poor decision to not spend more on player development and it shows. The Cardinal way of player development has been diminished.

Moving Mo out is the first big step. Hopefully Bloom is the answer. I think the Dewitt’s will spend with the right plan in place.

who was the old guy that used to roam the minor leagues teaching 'the cardinal way'?

hasn't been the same since he passed

George Kissell? But he has been dead since 2008....

yup.. that's him. never replaced him, and it shows

Shildt has the original Kissell bible. They hired him to tighten up fundamentals and he did. Then they fired him... Dysfunctional org that doesn't know what it wants to be. Hopefully Bloom et al. will run a tightly focused ship. Obviously players don't pan out, but if you have a plan and approach and stick with it... good things should eventually happen. MO changed plans every year or two once Taveras died. Constant band aids, and not often good ones. Better to have a plan in place and a system. Hopefully that is what will happen now. This team might only be 2-3 seasons away from being quite good. Yaneverknow

[CorneliusWolfe]

They have made the current decision to define themselves as a small market team.
Will that change?
Maybe.
Maybe not.
It will be very, very difficult to persuade the current ownership group to spend 200M a year simply to step up to a mid-market range.

What he said.

[An Old Friend]

I mean, look at the attendance.
Then look at the unwillingness to spend.
Then look at the low TV revenues.
Then look at the number of Free Agents that decided "no way".
Then look at the dwindling city and surrounding areas.

Man, they used to be a powerhouse.
What the hell happened?
A few losing seasons doesn't explain everything.
How long before they could turn into the Indians or Brewers?

I find it hard to believe that the dEwitts would want it this way.
Because I'd think there'd be a correlation of team market value to perception/performance.

They're absolutely now a small market time and behaving like one. The national brand of the Cardinals has been dying. They had the opportunity to not let that happen, but ownership lacked the vision to stop the slide.

They brought in leadership guys who came up through Tampa and Cleveland.

Anyone who doesn't see that writing is lying to themselves.

[JuanAgosto]

Several factors in play.

1. Mo has been horrible at every aspect of his job.
A. Roster construction.
B. Free agent signings.
C. Farm system development.

2. DeWitt had too much trust in Mo.
A. DeWitt also took 3 million fans for granted.
B. Tv revenue & attendance dropped, BDW got cheap.

3. StL is not what it used to be. Shrinking population, rising crime, and the old charm is fading.

4. Baseball is not the powerful force it used to be. Even in StL. People have found other interests.

[imadangman]

In terms of "market," what is there that sets St Louis apart from Minnesota, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Pittsburgh... this is a small market.

The Cardinals benefited from the most recent dynasty. The other franchises had winners in their history as well. All good storied franchises. The Cardinals were able to parlay the Big Mac trade into 15 years of good players wanting to play in St Louis. Having Tony La Russa around helped the reputation, and the emergence of a 13th round pick into a top 5 all-time hitter helped fuel a dynasty. Also of course the development of a HoF catcher, and a 29 year old reclamation project becoming a postseason legend (Carpenter). Yes, there had to be some luck that went our way. Some of it had to do with culture/management. The good luck stopped around the HackGate scandal. Since then, we're just another Midwest small market club.

I wonder at what point the club becomes a losing investment. BDW is a smart man, he knows downtown St Louis is in the gutter, even compared to what it was in 2000.

[45s]

In terms of "market," what is there that sets St Louis apart from Minnesota, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Pittsburgh... this is a small market.

The Cardinals benefited from the most recent dynasty. The other franchises had winners in their history as well. All good storied franchises. The Cardinals were able to parlay the Big Mac trade into 15 years of good players wanting to play in St Louis. Having Tony La Russa around helped the reputation, and the emergence of a 13th round pick into a top 5 all-time hitter helped fuel a dynasty. Also of course the development of a HoF catcher, and a 29 year old reclamation project becoming a postseason legend (Carpenter). Yes, there had to be some luck that went our way. Some of it had to do with culture/management. The good luck stopped around the HackGate scandal. Since then, we're just another Midwest small market club.

I wonder at what point the club becomes a losing investment. BDW is a smart man, he knows downtown St Louis is in the gutter, even compared to what it was in 2000.

Nothing I can disagree with..

Many want Dewitt to sell……and he may want to…….but the franchise might not be that attractive anymore

I look for him to start making noise about a new stadium away from downtown…

[BrockFloodMaris]

I mean, look at the attendance.
Then look at the unwillingness to spend.
Then look at the low TV revenues.
Then look at the number of Free Agents that decided "no way".
Then look at the dwindling city and surrounding areas.

Man, they used to be a powerhouse.
What the hell happened?
A few losing seasons doesn't explain everything.
How long before they could turn into the Indians or Brewers?

I find it hard to believe that the dEwitts would want it this way.
Because I'd think there'd be a correlation of team market value to perception/performance.

No the Dewitt’s would not want this to happen. There have just been some very poor decisions made combined with some bad luck.

Payroll is lower but in the past several years payroll levels have been good enough. It’s not how much you spend but how you spend it. Honestly most of the free agent acquisitions have not been poor decisions but some big money has been spent on players that underperformed.

However it has been a very poor decision to not spend more on player development and it shows. The Cardinal way of player development has been diminished.

Moving Mo out is the first big step. Hopefully Bloom is the answer. I think the Dewitt’s will spend with the right plan in place.

who was the old guy that used to roam the minor leagues teaching 'the cardinal way'?

hasn't been the same since he passed

George Kissell? But he has been dead since 2008....

yup.. that's him. never replaced him, and it shows

Shildt has the original Kissell bible. They hired him to tighten up fundamentals and he did. Then they fired him... Dysfunctional org that doesn't know what it wants to be. Hopefully Bloom et al. will run a tightly focused ship. Obviously players don't pan out, but if you have a plan and approach and stick with it... good things should eventually happen. MO changed plans every year or two once Taveras died. Constant band aids, and not often good ones. Better to have a plan in place and a system. Hopefully that is what will happen now. This team might only be 2-3 seasons away from being quite good. Yaneverknow

Yes, I agree that Mike Shildt was following the blueprint developed by George Kissell. Firing Mike was a fatal mistake for Mo. His arrogance really came back to bite Mo on that one. Up until a few years ago, BDW provided Mo with generous financial support. Mo squandered hundreds of millions. The fans finally gave up. For the longest time, the STL Cardinals outpunched their city's weight class. Those days are over, for the moment. Bloom will need to reignite excitement over a team that develops talent internally and teaches and plays good fundamental baseball. The fans will come back. BDW will loosen the purse strings when he sees a world series ring come into focus. That is the reset that I envision.

[mattmitchl44]

The Cardinals have really never been more than an upper mid-market team. Per Cot's, since 2000, this how many times the Cardinals have ranked in certain positions by year end payroll:

7th - 3
8th - 2
9th - 3
10th - 4
11th - 7
12th - 3 (in 2022)
13th - 2 (in 2024)
15th - 1 (in 2023)

So they've averaged around 10th or 11th.

But 10th/11th is also going to be a lot closer to 20th than to 1st.

[Cranny]

LOL.

[Poojols]

I mean, look at the attendance.
Then look at the unwillingness to spend.
Then look at the low TV revenues.
Then look at the number of Free Agents that decided "no way".
Then look at the dwindling city and surrounding areas.

Man, they used to be a powerhouse.
What the hell happened?
A few losing seasons doesn't explain everything.
How long before they could turn into the Indians or Brewers?

I find it hard to believe that the dEwitts would want it this way.
Because I'd think there'd be a correlation of team market value to perception/performance.

No the Dewitt’s would not want this to happen. There have just been some very poor decisions made combined with some bad luck.

Payroll is lower but in the past several years payroll levels have been good enough. It’s not how much you spend but how you spend it. Honestly most of the free agent acquisitions have not been poor decisions but some big money has been spent on players that underperformed.

However it has been a very poor decision to not spend more on player development and it shows. The Cardinal way of player development has been diminished.

Moving Mo out is the first big step. Hopefully Bloom is the answer. I think the Dewitt’s will spend with the right plan in place.

who was the old guy that used to roam the minor leagues teaching 'the cardinal way'?

hasn't been the same since he passed

George Kissell? But he has been dead since 2008....

yup.. that's him. never replaced him, and it shows

Shildt has the original Kissell bible. They hired him to tighten up fundamentals and he did. Then they fired him... Dysfunctional org that doesn't know what it wants to be. Hopefully Bloom et al. will run a tightly focused ship. Obviously players don't pan out, but if you have a plan and approach and stick with it... good things should eventually happen. MO changed plans every year or two once Taveras died. Constant band aids, and not often good ones. Better to have a plan in place and a system. Hopefully that is what will happen now. This team might only be 2-3 seasons away from being quite good. Yaneverknow

Yes, I agree that Mike Shildt was following the blueprint developed by George Kissell. Firing Mike was a fatal mistake for Mo. His arrogance really came back to bite Mo on that one. Up until a few years ago, BDW provided Mo with generous financial support. Mo squandered hundreds of millions. The fans finally gave up. For the longest time, the STL Cardinals outpunched their city's weight class. Those days are over, for the moment. Bloom will need to reignite excitement over a team that develops talent internally and teaches and plays good fundamental baseball. The fans will come back. BDW will loosen the purse strings when he sees a world series ring come into focus. That is the reset that I envision.

I agree with everything except BDW providing Mo with generous financial support. He's just as much to blame as Mo by never allowing him to go after elite FA. BDW allowed him to sign mid tier players and Mo did screw most of those up. They worked together on this decade long [shirt] show.

[ramfandan]

stl is becoming a small market...

but it's not the club's fault

Good point ! While the Cardinals were considered a mid-market team for years, DeWitt (right or wrong ) has come to the conclusion that for the big ticket free agent type players , the big bucks $$$ on each coast will sign the big boys. In addition , he sees what the Milwaukee Brewers have done spending an even smaller payroll than he does and doing well in the division and getting a similar attendance . He knows that the Freemans, Ohtanis, Sotos, etc. are not coming to St. Louis for the long term. So spending in the top 10 to 15 isn't going to do him much more than spending around 20-25 unfortunately. Build the prospects, play them and then realize when they reach free agency they are bye bye .

[AtillaTheBlue1]

Last time I checked, the Brewers were consistently fielding decent ball clubs with far fewer resources. If this organization was run by people who were competent the future would not be that bleak. Let's hope Bloom et al. do far better and don't squander resources like MO did in recent history.

I think Milwaukee, took the Cardinal way, and has continued to win, because of it.


they have the ballz to trade their top guy, to help them down the road, while drafting and producing players to fill the gaps. they are winning with pitching, which used to be a huge deal, that cardinals felt was a top priority. pitching beats bats

[DwaininAztec]

DeWitt said this spring that for this year and maybe another the salary total wasn't going up, but in 3 to 5 years it should continue to rise to pay the young players as they mature. I can see that as a working plan.

No, I don't think they will be able to spend like the large market teams do, but could pick up the right players to finish off the team as the young guys mature into their roles.

[scoutyjones2]

I mean, look at the attendance.
Then look at the unwillingness to spend.
Then look at the low TV revenues.
Then look at the number of Free Agents that decided "no way".
Then look at the dwindling city and surrounding areas.

Man, they used to be a powerhouse.
What the hell happened?
A few losing seasons doesn't explain everything.
How long before they could turn into the Indians or Brewers?

I find it hard to believe that the dEwitts would want it this way.
Because I'd think there'd be a correlation of team market value to perception/performance.

No the Dewitt’s would not want this to happen. There have just been some very poor decisions made combined with some bad luck.

Payroll is lower but in the past several years payroll levels have been good enough. It’s not how much you spend but how you spend it. Honestly most of the free agent acquisitions have not been poor decisions but some big money has been spent on players that underperformed.

However it has been a very poor decision to not spend more on player development and it shows. The Cardinal way of player development has been diminished.

Moving Mo out is the first big step. Hopefully Bloom is the answer. I think the Dewitt’s will spend with the right plan in place.

who was the old guy that used to roam the minor leagues teaching 'the cardinal way'?

hasn't been the same since he passed

George Kissell? But he has been dead since 2008....

yup.. that's him. never replaced him, and it shows

[greyhawk]

I mean, look at the attendance.
Then look at the unwillingness to spend.
Then look at the low TV revenues.
Then look at the number of Free Agents that decided "no way".
Then look at the dwindling city and surrounding areas.

Man, they used to be a powerhouse.
What the hell happened?
A few losing seasons doesn't explain everything.
How long before they could turn into the Indians or Brewers?

I find it hard to believe that the dEwitts would want it this way.
Because I'd think there'd be a correlation of team market value to perception/performance.

No the Dewitt’s would not want this to happen. There have just been some very poor decisions made combined with some bad luck.

Payroll is lower but in the past several years payroll levels have been good enough. It’s not how much you spend but how you spend it. Honestly most of the free agent acquisitions have not been poor decisions but some big money has been spent on players that underperformed.

However it has been a very poor decision to not spend more on player development and it shows. The Cardinal way of player development has been diminished.

Moving Mo out is the first big step. Hopefully Bloom is the answer. I think the Dewitt’s will spend with the right plan in place.

who was the old guy that used to roam the minor leagues teaching 'the cardinal way'?

hasn't been the same since he passed

George Kissell? But he has been dead since 2008....

yup.. that's him. never replaced him, and it shows

Shildt has the original Kissell bible. They hired him to tighten up fundamentals and he did. Then they fired him... Dysfunctional org that doesn't know what it wants to be. Hopefully Bloom et al. will run a tightly focused ship. Obviously players don't pan out, but if you have a plan and approach and stick with it... good things should eventually happen. MO changed plans every year or two once Taveras died. Constant band aids, and not often good ones. Better to have a plan in place and a system. Hopefully that is what will happen now. This team might only be 2-3 seasons away from being quite good. Yaneverknow

Yes, I agree that Mike Shildt was following the blueprint developed by George Kissell. Firing Mike was a fatal mistake for Mo. His arrogance really came back to bite Mo on that one. Up until a few years ago, BDW provided Mo with generous financial support. Mo squandered hundreds of millions. The fans finally gave up. For the longest time, the STL Cardinals outpunched their city's weight class. Those days are over, for the moment. Bloom will need to reignite excitement over a team that develops talent internally and teaches and plays good fundamental baseball. The fans will come back. BDW will loosen the purse strings when he sees a world series ring come into focus. That is the reset that I envision.

Shildt also studied under and talked often with LaRussa --- which had to drive Moronzelak crazy. He had a spine and told management what he needed and was shown the door.

[Mort Gage]

The Cards aren't taking on big money FAs this offseason. Maybe a reliever and a cheap inning eating starter on a one year deal. With the CBA up after next year there is a probable lockout, and I think the players will press hard for a better deal than last time. After that dust clears will be a better time to evaluate the direction of their payroll.