Buying The Cardinals Way Back To The WS

[WLTFE]

Should've gone all in on Bryce Harper when they had the chance.
Should've gone all in on Juan Soto when they had the chance.

I have no faith that current ownership has what it takes to get this franchise back to where it belongs. They lost their will to win and massively took the fan base for granted. It's tough to recover a brand when the leadership in place for the fall stays in place.

Exactly...I was at the game and the place was dead...the fans I talked to are frustrated that a lame duck Mo-ran is still the face of the franchise...they want to see a big move, that ownership cares.. a [fork]ing billionaire can afford to take some risk...I'm guessing that the sycophants aren't buying tickets as well.

[Cranny]

Should've gone all in on Bryce Harper when they had the chance.
Should've gone all in on Juan Soto when they had the chance.

I have no faith that current ownership has what it takes to get this franchise back to where it belongs. They lost their will to win and massively took the fan base for granted. It's tough to recover a brand when the leadership in place for the fall stays in place.

Thanks - very original post.

They’ve done nothing to rebuild the faith of the fanbase, so it bears repeating. Why does that bother you so much? Truth hurts?

Because it's such an all encompassing, general opinion. It's like a bone with no meat on it. And it offers no details on how specifically you think they can back to where you want them to be. Something constructive, reasonable, and affordable.
Plus it's a general opinion that's stated on here time after time after time after time after time after time, etc.

[rockondlouie]

Keep it up Toady Front Office Footstool.

cranny = king of all sycophants

C. Bloom/R.Cerfolio can only do so much via the draft & development route.

If they find one FOTR #1 starter and one all-star position player in the next five years via the draft & development route, then they've done more than Mo and his gang have for years.

But that won't be even close to enough to make them WS contenders.

Unless BDWJr takes the payroll back to $180+M, this team is destined for years of mediocre baseball.

Poor take cranny.........as usual

So what’s your solution, Rock?

BDWjr has done a good thing removing Mo and replacing him w/two smart young baseball execs.

Next would be removing Oli at seasons end and replacing him w/an experience major league Manager.

Finally, he has to give Bloom "some" money (+$35-40M above this season payroll would be a good start) to fill in the holes on this roster (starting pitcher, MOTO hitter).

Nothing crazy (re: NOT K. Tucker) but definitely an upgrade.

That’s reasonable and makes sense.

Thx

with all the expirings we have coming off, that would be $45 mill and Arenado's salary seems to be going down (assuming we don't trade him). Factor in if we got $35-$40 mill (won't happen) but that would be $80 million to get some players. Could make a real dent if we go after a superstar type with our other talent we are developing. It is fine to build if build smart, but still got to do both. Totally agree with you Rock! Have a golden opportunity if JJ pans out and hit on our #5 pick. To me, below is the core based on age (Love Donny - my fav current Cardinal, but do you build around him or trade him if can get a haul due to age and contract?).

Burly
Herrera
Winn
JJ
Libby
McGreevy

Matthews
Roby/Hence (one hopefully will pan out)
Bernal


Fringe:
Pages
Donovan or get a haul
Victor Scott


Trade pieces IMO if can restore:
Noot
Gorman
Donny if we don't keep him
Crooks

Possible down the line?
Baez
Raniel
Padilla


Current trade pieces:
Matz
Helsley
Maton
Romero

maybe could get something if can restore (Fedde) and if willing to waive no-trade, Arenado


We have some wiggle room to do some things to rebuild this if done right, rather quickly.

Thx meat

I'd a huge Donny fan too, I extend him and build around him and his leadership but agree w/all your other trade chips.

There's roughly $42.6M falling off the books from expired deals.

NADO reduces to $27M -$5M from Rockies -$3M deferred to $19M

Gray jumps +$10M.

ARB raises ($15M est.)

Total:
$90M 2026 payroll (est)

So if BDWJr takes the payroll to $150M (nothing crazy so relax cranny, but well below the $175-180M he gave Mo) then C. Bloom could have as much as $60M to spend on trade targets and Free agents!

With our attendance figures this year, I think $150M is wildly optimistic. BDW killed the goose that layed the golden eggs...

I think Bill knows he's got to "spend money to make money" and for him to make (a lot of) money he needs that 3+M back.

A $150M payroll for this market is still low, he can easily afford that.

And if Bloom makes wise use of it and the team rebounds to a 90+ win team, then he'll draw 3+M again.

BUT

Dewitt also has to get rid of Oli who has too much "Mo stank" on him to stay around in 2026.

A very, very large portion of the (potential) paying fan base dislikes Oli and see's him as part of the problem and NOT part of the solution to turning this around.

And they're right, he's NOT a good Manager.

I don't get why the players like and respect him.

Liking does not = Good manager

Not a good in game strategist, get's out managed by opposing managers all the time.

Sets a very poor lineup that doesn't put hitters in the right lineup slot, doesn't show any creativity creating scoring chances and is very predictable.

He belongs back in minor league baseball, he has a player development mindset that's suited for AA/AAA.

Thank you for your opinion.

Welcome

[An Old Friend]

Should've gone all in on Bryce Harper when they had the chance.
Should've gone all in on Juan Soto when they had the chance.

I have no faith that current ownership has what it takes to get this franchise back to where it belongs. They lost their will to win and massively took the fan base for granted. It's tough to recover a brand when the leadership in place for the fall stays in place.

Exactly...I was at the game and the place was dead...the fans I talked to are frustrated that a lame duck Mo-ran is still the face of the franchise...they want to see a big move, that ownership cares.. a [fork]ing billionaire can afford to take some risk...I'm guessing that the sycophants aren't buying tickets as well.

I hate that Mozeliak, who we all know is out at the end of the year, won't cede control of this season and specifically the deadline strategy. He has no idea what they're going to do. Katie Woo reported that he's likely to not really have any decisions made even within a few days of the deadline. He's going to allow the last 2 or 3 days to dictate that... which means you have no strategy, no compass.

I'm so sick of him saying "hope" and "hopefully". He literally said "hopefully the opportunity is there" sometime in August for Michael McGreevy... dude, YOU DECIDE THAT!

Mozeliak said they've had consistent starting pitching... I guess in the sense that they've had the same guys out there, that is true. But I think of consistency in terms of performance.

• Pallante has gone less than 5 innings 5 times in 18 starts. He has just 7 quality starts and a 4.86 ERA over last 9 starts.
  Mikolas has gone less than 5 innings 4 times in 18 starts. He has just 5 quality starts and a 6.04 ERA over last 9 starts. He's been abysmal and his record is only decent because the Cardinals have scored 6 runs or more in 9 of his starts.
  Fedde has a 6.48 ERA over his last 9 starts.

He thinks fans are stupid. You can't just say you've had consistent starting pitching and it be true. They've been consistently bad.

Mozeliak said he hasn't talked to ownership about adding salary at the deadline if an opportunity presented itself.

I haven’t really dove too deep into that conversation,” Mozeliak said. “I do think if ownership saw we were in a spot to do something, I think they’d support it.

THINK? FOH.

He indicated that he's not really collaborating with Bloom... that this year is his decision... that he's mostly just thinking about guys who are going to be free agents. He said he doesn't think they intend to move pitching (i.e. Helsely, Maton, Matz).

He's treating his final year with selfish apathy.

[desertrat23]

Should've gone all in on Bryce Harper when they had the chance.
Should've gone all in on Juan Soto when they had the chance.

I have no faith that current ownership has what it takes to get this franchise back to where it belongs. They lost their will to win and massively took the fan base for granted. It's tough to recover a brand when the leadership in place for the fall stays in place.

Thanks - very original post.

They’ve done nothing to rebuild the faith of the fanbase, so it bears repeating. Why does that bother you so much? Truth hurts?

Because it's such an all encompassing, general opinion. It's like a bone with no meat on it. And it offers no details on how specifically you think they can back to where you want them to be. Something constructive, reasonable, and affordable.
Plus it's a general opinion that's stated on here time after time after time after time after time after time, etc.

I'm sorry that you have to read things you disagree with time and time again. There's a simple solution to that...

And you've been given plenty of details, plenty of ideas to get them back to where we ALL want them to be (if you care about winning, that is.) You're not the ultimate arbiter of what's "reasonable" and "affordable." The vast majority of folks here want to see the team invest more into payroll, typically between $185-$200M. They want the team to be built around a robust minor-league system (as you do), and want them to supplement with QUALITY free agents/trades (not dumpster-diving, bargain-shopping types). Above all they want a team that's aggressive and serious about deep playoff runs. Why anyone at all would disagree with this is beyond me.

[desertrat23]

He's treating his final year with selfish apathy.

He's treated the five years (at least) with selfish apathy, what's one more?

[hugeCardfan]

Many posters have suggested that the Cards should get back to the $175-180 million spending level. Let’s see what that would do.

Dodgers - $337.8 million
Mets - $331.3 million
Yanks - $290.3 million
Phillies - $279.4 million
Jays - $245.9 million
Astros - $221.3 million
Rangers - $218.7 million
Braves - $211.7 million
Padres - $209.0 million
Cubs - $195.4 million
Giants - $195.3 million
Angels - $193.9 million
Red Sox - $190.8 million
Diamondbacks - $188.9 million
Cardinals - 175-180 million

Maybe just throwing money at it won’t do the trick.
The strength will have to come mainly through the system. Draft well. Develop well. Trade as necessary to fill holes.

$200M, or top 10. Stop rooting for Bill DeWitt and start rooting for the Cardinals.

I doubt if $200M buys you deep into October vs.
the big spenders.

I don't think it's about spending as much as the big boys, but spending smarter. I think we are on a good road. We have begun improving the development program and are focused on acquisitions in the International market as well as internal development. Smart management includes an occasional FA or trade that warrants an extension. That's Cardinal baseball.

Tampa has shown that a good development program works. But, they can't follow up with extensions. We can. I don't worry about BDW's money. I doubt he does either. But, he isn't spending willy nilly. Players have a tendency to want more than they will earn. Maybe DeWitt is waiting for the player/ownership negotiations which will bring things back in line. This winter needs to be serious negotiations time. Baseball is broken. Nobody wants a Dodgers hegemony.

[desertrat23]

Many posters have suggested that the Cards should get back to the $175-180 million spending level. Let’s see what that would do.

Dodgers - $337.8 million
Mets - $331.3 million
Yanks - $290.3 million
Phillies - $279.4 million
Jays - $245.9 million
Astros - $221.3 million
Rangers - $218.7 million
Braves - $211.7 million
Padres - $209.0 million
Cubs - $195.4 million
Giants - $195.3 million
Angels - $193.9 million
Red Sox - $190.8 million
Diamondbacks - $188.9 million
Cardinals - 175-180 million

Maybe just throwing money at it won’t do the trick.
The strength will have to come mainly through the system. Draft well. Develop well. Trade as necessary to fill holes.

$200M, or top 10. Stop rooting for Bill DeWitt and start rooting for the Cardinals.

I doubt if $200M buys you deep into October vs.
the big spenders.

I don't think it's about spending as much as the big boys, but spending smarter. I think we are on a good road. We have begun improving the development program and are focused on acquisitions in the International market as well as internal development. Smart management includes an occasional FA or trade that warrants an extension. That's Cardinal baseball.

Tampa has shown that a good development program works. But, they can't follow up with extensions. We can. I don't worry about BDW's money. I doubt he does either. But, he isn't spending willy nilly. Players have a tendency to want more than they will earn. Maybe DeWitt is waiting for the player/ownership negotiations which will bring things back in line. This winter needs to be serious negotiations time. Baseball is broken. Nobody wants a Dodgers hegemony.

This is all anyone is really asking for. NO ONE expects them to spend like the Dodgers, but it's OK to expect them to try harder.

[hugeCardfan]

Many posters have suggested that the Cards should get back to the $175-180 million spending level. Let’s see what that would do.

Dodgers - $337.8 million
Mets - $331.3 million
Yanks - $290.3 million
Phillies - $279.4 million
Jays - $245.9 million
Astros - $221.3 million
Rangers - $218.7 million
Braves - $211.7 million
Padres - $209.0 million
Cubs - $195.4 million
Giants - $195.3 million
Angels - $193.9 million
Red Sox - $190.8 million
Diamondbacks - $188.9 million
Cardinals - 175-180 million

Maybe just throwing money at it won’t do the trick.
The strength will have to come mainly through the system. Draft well. Develop well. Trade as necessary to fill holes.

$200M, or top 10. Stop rooting for Bill DeWitt and start rooting for the Cardinals.

I doubt if $200M buys you deep into October vs.
the big spenders.

I don't think it's about spending as much as the big boys, but spending smarter. I think we are on a good road. We have begun improving the development program and are focused on acquisitions in the International market as well as internal development. Smart management includes an occasional FA or trade that warrants an extension. That's Cardinal baseball.

Tampa has shown that a good development program works. But, they can't follow up with extensions. We can. I don't worry about BDW's money. I doubt he does either. But, he isn't spending willy nilly. Players have a tendency to want more than they will earn. Maybe DeWitt is waiting for the player/ownership negotiations which will bring things back in line. This winter needs to be serious negotiations time. Baseball is broken. Nobody wants a Dodgers hegemony.

This is all anyone is really asking for. NO ONE expects them to spend like the Dodgers, but it's OK to expect them to try harder.

Yeah. I loved the effort to bring Goldie and Arenado into the fold. But, that requires a similar effort in the pitching which did not exist. I think BDW Jr just lost confidence in Mo's decision making and initiated a step back. That's fair, if he will be ready to step up when it's warranted. I fear that III won't be the guy to take the program further. Hopefully he gives Chaim enough rope.

[desertrat23]

Many posters have suggested that the Cards should get back to the $175-180 million spending level. Let’s see what that would do.

Dodgers - $337.8 million
Mets - $331.3 million
Yanks - $290.3 million
Phillies - $279.4 million
Jays - $245.9 million
Astros - $221.3 million
Rangers - $218.7 million
Braves - $211.7 million
Padres - $209.0 million
Cubs - $195.4 million
Giants - $195.3 million
Angels - $193.9 million
Red Sox - $190.8 million
Diamondbacks - $188.9 million
Cardinals - 175-180 million

Maybe just throwing money at it won’t do the trick.
The strength will have to come mainly through the system. Draft well. Develop well. Trade as necessary to fill holes.

$200M, or top 10. Stop rooting for Bill DeWitt and start rooting for the Cardinals.

I doubt if $200M buys you deep into October vs.
the big spenders.

I don't think it's about spending as much as the big boys, but spending smarter. I think we are on a good road. We have begun improving the development program and are focused on acquisitions in the International market as well as internal development. Smart management includes an occasional FA or trade that warrants an extension. That's Cardinal baseball.

Tampa has shown that a good development program works. But, they can't follow up with extensions. We can. I don't worry about BDW's money. I doubt he does either. But, he isn't spending willy nilly. Players have a tendency to want more than they will earn. Maybe DeWitt is waiting for the player/ownership negotiations which will bring things back in line. This winter needs to be serious negotiations time. Baseball is broken. Nobody wants a Dodgers hegemony.

This is all anyone is really asking for. NO ONE expects them to spend like the Dodgers, but it's OK to expect them to try harder.

Yeah. I loved the effort to bring Goldie and Arenado into the fold. But, that requires a similar effort in the pitching which did not exist. I think BDW Jr just lost confidence in Mo's decision making and initiated a step back. That's fair, if he will be ready to step up when it's warranted. I fear that III won't be the guy to take the program further. Hopefully he gives Chaim enough rope.

All good points. I loved the Goldy and Arenado moves. They were a stroke of genius on Mo's part -- but it always seemed like even with that, they need one more move (probably in pitching to your point) that they just never made.

It's also very possible (likely even) that DeWitt lost confidence in Mo and retrenched. Which makes it even more maddening that Mo wasn't replaced after 2023 or 2024.

[Cranny]

Many posters have suggested that the Cards should get back to the $175-180 million spending level. Let’s see what that would do.

Dodgers - $337.8 million
Mets - $331.3 million
Yanks - $290.3 million
Phillies - $279.4 million
Jays - $245.9 million
Astros - $221.3 million
Rangers - $218.7 million
Braves - $211.7 million
Padres - $209.0 million
Cubs - $195.4 million
Giants - $195.3 million
Angels - $193.9 million
Red Sox - $190.8 million
Diamondbacks - $188.9 million
Cardinals - 175-180 million

Maybe just throwing money at it won’t do the trick.
The strength will have to come mainly through the system. Draft well. Develop well. Trade as necessary to fill holes.

I don’t get your point. You make the point that money can buy you love, or WS. Correct.

Of all the teams listed, all but one are recently successful.
Yes money works.

The point is simple. You can’t spend on free agents like big market teams can, but you can strengthen
the farm system and use some well developed minor leaguers as trade chips. It’s the way Cardinals have become successful in the past. It didn’t work with Ozuna, Goldy, and Arenado, but trying that model again is simply the only way forward.

Well developed minor leaguer- why would I trade that young and cost controlled up and coming performance. It’s exactly what I crave.


Next if I do trade the young studs, the player I get back, the vet stud, carries a salary. A big salary.

Tor simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Dawg -

A good picture would be to look at the deals in the past - Holliday, Ozuna, Goldy, Arenado, etc. Plus the short term deals for Beltran and Berkman. That way of doing business is the only way that will work IMHO. Plus, a strong feeder system from the minors.

[WLTFE]

He's treating his final year with selfish apathy.

He's treated the five years (at least) with selfish apathy, what's one more?

Mo-ran is giving a big '[fork] You' to the fans in his last year....he must have had his feelings hurt by being booed on opening day...he is such an arrogant, pompous (donkey)(pit).

[Goldfan]

So essentially where they’ve always been in the payroll picking order, only difference now is that the infrastructure was left to rot and who knows if it will ever be what it was. You ad Luhnow with TLR/Dunc…..that’s a world class management team….BDW/MO thought they could do just as good WHILE
BDW went cheap on the farm….and Cranny cries that STL can’t compete with NY and LA payroll…..IT NEVER DID!!!
Cranny stop your lying propaganda. The reason the Cardinals are in the spot they are is IDIOT running the organization
Can you honestly compare TLR/Dunc to Oli/Dusty ???? Who did that??? BDW
BDW admitted they went cheap with their development system….WHO DID THAT??? BDW

[Cranny]

So essentially where they’ve always been in the payroll picking order, only difference now is that the infrastructure was left to rot and who knows if it will ever be what it was. You ad Luhnow with TLR/Dunc…..that’s a world class management team….BDW/MO thought they could do just as good WHILE
BDW went cheap on the farm….and Cranny cries that STL can’t compete with NY and LA payroll…..IT NEVER DID!!!
Cranny stop your lying propaganda. The reason the Cardinals are in the spot they are is IDIOT running the organization
Can you honestly compare TLR/Dunc to Oli/Dusty ???? Who did that??? BDW
BDW admitted they went cheap with their development system….WHO DID THAT??? BDW

Perhaps, but now they seem to be getting back on track with the developmental system. One thing that folks seem ask for, though, that is not going to happen - is huge long term contracts for free agents. BDW likes to rent and try on before buying, as I've heard him say multiple times.

[An Old Friend]

So essentially where they’ve always been in the payroll picking order, only difference now is that the infrastructure was left to rot and who knows if it will ever be what it was. You ad Luhnow with TLR/Dunc…..that’s a world class management team….BDW/MO thought they could do just as good WHILE
BDW went cheap on the farm….and Cranny cries that STL can’t compete with NY and LA payroll…..IT NEVER DID!!!
Cranny stop your lying propaganda. The reason the Cardinals are in the spot they are is IDIOT running the organization
Can you honestly compare TLR/Dunc to Oli/Dusty ???? Who did that??? BDW
BDW admitted they went cheap with their development system….WHO DID THAT??? BDW

Perhaps, but now they seem to be getting back on track with the developmental system. One thing that folks seem ask for, though, that is not going to happen - is huge long term contracts for free agents. BDW likes to rent and try on before buying, as I've heard him say multiple times.

Has BDW been able to admit that the way the team found success two decades ago may be a bit stale?

[Cranny]

So essentially where they’ve always been in the payroll picking order, only difference now is that the infrastructure was left to rot and who knows if it will ever be what it was. You ad Luhnow with TLR/Dunc…..that’s a world class management team….BDW/MO thought they could do just as good WHILE
BDW went cheap on the farm….and Cranny cries that STL can’t compete with NY and LA payroll…..IT NEVER DID!!!
Cranny stop your lying propaganda. The reason the Cardinals are in the spot they are is IDIOT running the organization
Can you honestly compare TLR/Dunc to Oli/Dusty ???? Who did that??? BDW
BDW admitted they went cheap with their development system….WHO DID THAT??? BDW

Perhaps, but now they seem to be getting back on track with the developmental system. One thing that folks seem ask for, though, that is not going to happen - is huge long term contracts for free agents. BDW likes to rent and try on before buying, as I've heard him say multiple times.

Has BDW been able to admit that the way the team found success two decades ago may be a bit stale?

It's not stale at all. Develop good prospects and trade them as necessary to fill holes. Stay away from huge long term FA contracts that put too many eggs into one basket. Sign older free agents as necessary to short term contracts. It's the only way to do it with a smaller budget than many teams.