Cards need a 6+ WAR slugger, not more JAGs

[Cardinals4Life]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

How many are there and what's the price?

Not exactly growing in trees, I’ll give you that, but there’s always a move to be made if you’re willing to pay and give up some of those faberge eggs. It’s the GMs job to find them.

Everyone’s latest favorite gonna-be star JJW and one of those catchers on the farm should net a high end player from a rebuilding team that can help us now and the future. It might entail a trade and sign to ensure control. When was the last time we saw a bold and creative move like that?

So many seem willing to keep on waiting and waiting for the next great hope from our system while the team has shown a consistent inability to develop them to their supposed superstar potential.

The Brett Wallace for Matt Holliday was an example.

[icon]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

Exactly. They need players who are notches above their currently best players. Donovan needs to be traded along with others for more value in 1 or 2 players who are or are budding stars. You cannot obtain value without giving some up. No teams are giving up value for Cardinals trash like Noot or huge question marks like Gorman and Walker.

[CorneliusWolfe]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

How many are there and what's the price?

Not exactly growing in trees, I’ll give you that, but there’s always a move to be made if you’re willing to pay and give up some of those faberge eggs. It’s the GMs job to find them.

Everyone’s latest favorite gonna-be star JJW and one of those catchers on the farm should net a high end player from a rebuilding team that can help us now and the future. It might entail a trade and sign to ensure control. When was the last time we saw a bold and creative move like that?

So many seem willing to keep on waiting and waiting for the next great hope from our system while the team has shown a consistent inability to develop them to their supposed superstar potential.

The Brett Wallace for Matt Holliday was an example.

Very fitting example. JJW is a fine prospect, but for some reason the team’s finishing work at the ML level stalls and their value plummets. These prospects should be objectively viewed as assets, not saviors, until they fix the whole developmental issue.

[BrockFloodMaris]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

I think what BDW and Chaim Bloom hope to do is develop an organization that promotes one 4+ WAR player a year to the MLB roster.

That has been DeWitts hope for over a decade. Mo failed miserably.

Yes, Mo suffers from (in no particular order)

Arrogance
Laziness
Stubbornness

[sdaltons]

Wallace was a big prospect at the time. It was bold to move him without fully seeing what he would be, but it paid off in spades.

They tried similar moves later with Arozarena, etc, and it didn't work out as well. It's been clear for the last few years he's gunshy and can't bring himself to pull the trigger on any of these deals.

Would appear he no longer has the ability to judge which prospects will excel and which will bust, so he holds on to all of them until any hope for real value is gone.

[CCard]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

I think Armstrong is playing a little over his head right now and it obviously helps to have a stud like Tucker in the lineup. Those players you speak of are exceedingly hard to come by and teams don't usually trade them. As shown by your list, they are pretty well not obtainable. I'd be happy with a few around 2.5 or so. We have one in Donovan but we could really use 2 more. Maybe a few of the young guys turn into that player. The problem is going to be paying them if they reach that plateau. Something DeWitt doesn't want to do.

You make some points - if we have one of this type of slugger like Tucker, it could make some of the young guys like IH, Noot, Gorman look a lot better. More ABs, more RBI chances, longer innings and more times thru the lineup every game. Which is exactly why we need an elite player - to make everyone around them better. Just adding more of the same level won't do that. Quality over quantity.

Meanwhile - remember this IS the Freaking STL Cardinals. We have brought in many All star and elite players this century: McGwire, Renteria, Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, Arenado. We absolutely can and should continue to make these types of trades to change the level of this franchise. Its not impossible, its just been a minute so many fans have forgotten it Can happen.

The bar has been lowered and seems everyone has joined the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity. As if some team’s mid prospects they don’t care to lose are going to all jump from the minors next year and become superstars for us.

Building a foundation from JAGs is worthless and is exactly what is going on and so many want to double down on it. This team needs a shot of star power. Overpay like everyone else, at least for one guy, preferably an OFer worth a (drat).

They can afford a great bat and a great starter. They'll lie and say not but they make plenty of money. Billionaires crying poor make me sick to my stomach.

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

I would settle for a Torkleson

[Melville]

Whose the best chance to become a star, or at least a middle of lineup producer

Wetherholt
Herrera
Baez

All-Star level slugger?
None of the above.

[Melville]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

WAR, of course, is not a real stat, nor is it a reliable pretense.
That said, it is obvious the team needs a middle order bat which regularly produces a high volume of XBH's.
That begins by simply playing the hitters most capable of doing so and allowing them consistent, sustained opportunity - which the Cardinals do not do.
Therefore, nothing will improve until Super Slo Mo's slime trail is all of him which remains in view, and until The Marmot, the forever novice never learning boy wonder is returned to an obscure apprentice role in some other organization's minor league labyrinth.
At that point, perhaps a truly productive RH hitting middle order bat will be acquired and perhaps the hitters who should be playing will be.

[Futuregm2]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

That will be Bloom’s responsibility. They will need to hope that Wetherholt, Bernal, Baez, or Rodriguez/Padilla turn into one, or maybe the #5 overall pick this year. Otherwise, acquiring one through trade will take either those players listed or finding a player who can breakout like a Kyle Stowers (although he’s probably less than a 6 fWAR player, but he’s still been good for the Marlins) or Brent Rooker type.

[RichieRichSTL]

What you are talking about is elite talent. The best team doesn't always win, but teams with little elite talent rarely win it all.

Elite talent plays well in all circumstances. They might excel more in certain match-ups or have better splits, but they will always be a threat no matter. It will steal wins from the mound when the offense struggles, it will overpower pitching and rescue your pitching having an off day. In short, it can carry a team. It can take the form of an elite manager/coaching too. The 2006/2011 Cardinals had some elite player talent, but other teams had more. Wh at set them apart was they had a HOF manager who knew how to get the most out of his players and HOF talent level pitching coach. They knew exactly how to pick the spots for their players.

The Cardinals as you say have sone nice players, but little in the way of elite talent. They definitely do not have elite coaching/manager talent.

The sad part is Mo hasn't always recognized it enough to keep it, hasn't always put it in a position to develop properly, hasn't always acquired enough of it , wasting what they had in the process.

The Arenado/Goldschmidt era will always be remembered as a wasted window.

[Cardinals4Life]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

WAR, of course, is not a real stat, nor is it a reliable pretense.
That said, it is obvious the team needs a middle order bat which regularly produces a high volume of XBH's.
That begins by simply playing the hitters most capable of doing so and allowing them consistent, sustained opportunity - which the Cardinals do not do.
Therefore, nothing will improve until Super Slo Mo's slime trail is all of him which remains in view, and until The Marmot, the forever novice never learning boy wonder is returned to an obscure apprentice role in some other organization's minor league labyrinth.
At that point, perhaps a truly productive RH hitting middle order bat will be acquired and perhaps the hitters who should be playing will be.

Well said!

[Cardinals4Life]

What you are talking about is elite talent. The best team doesn't always win, but teams with little elite talent rarely win it all.

Elite talent plays well in all circumstances. They might excel more in certain match-ups or have better splits, but they will always be a threat no matter. It will steal wins from the mound when the offense struggles, it will overpower pitching and rescue your pitching having an off day. In short, it can carry a team. It can take the form of an elite manager/coaching too. The 2006/2011 Cardinals had some elite player talent, but other teams had more. Wh at set them apart was they had a HOF manager who knew how to get the most out of his players and HOF talent level pitching coach. They knew exactly how to pick the spots for their players.

The Cardinals as you say have sone nice players, but little in the way of elite talent. They definitely do not have elite coaching/manager talent.

The sad part is Mo hasn't always recognized it enough to keep it, hasn't always put it in a position to develop properly, hasn't always acquired enough of it , wasting what they had in the process.

The Arenado/Goldschmidt era will always be remembered as a wasted window.

Great synopsis, guy!! Couldn't agree more.

[RichieRichSTL]

What you are talking about is elite talent. The best team doesn't always win, but teams with little elite talent rarely win it all.

Elite talent plays well in all circumstances. They might excel more in certain match-ups or have better splits, but they will always be a threat no matter. It will steal wins from the mound when the offense struggles, it will overpower pitching and rescue your pitching having an off day. In short, it can carry a team. It can take the form of an elite manager/coaching too. The 2006/2011 Cardinals had some elite player talent, but other teams had more. Wh at set them apart was they had a HOF manager who knew how to get the most out of his players and HOF talent level pitching coach. They knew exactly how to pick the spots for their players.

The Cardinals as you say have sone nice players, but little in the way of elite talent. They definitely do not have elite coaching/manager talent.

The sad part is Mo hasn't always recognized it enough to keep it, hasn't always put it in a position to develop properly, hasn't always acquired enough of it , wasting what they had in the process.

The Arenado/Goldschmidt era will always be remembered as a wasted window.

Great synopsis, guy!! Couldn't agree more.

Ty

[rockondlouie]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

How many are there and what's the price?

^^^THIS^^^

The ONLY way the Cardinals will have that is through draft/development.

Tucker, for instance and on your list, is looking at $400+M this offseason.

BDWJr does NOT swim in those waters.

The days of landing a Goldy or NADO for nothing are probably over, still amazes me the Cardinals were able to pull off those two heist.

[mattmitchl44]

See below for the WAR hitting leaders - but we currently have maybe one position player that will exceed 4 WAR and about 10 that will finish in the 0-2.x WAR range. Every time I hear - lets trade this guy or that guy and maybe get a "nice prospect", I immediately think - does Nice prospect mean a 6+ WAR bat, or does it mean more clutter in the mix of JAGs? We certainly don't need more 1-2 WAR players on this team - they are a dime a dozen and we have nearly a dozen. So what's the point of obsessing about all these little trades for little players when we need to target someone who can make this list below (or is already in it)? How do we actually make a game changing move here?

(multiple by around 1.8 to get estimated full season WARs).
1. Judge • NYY 6.6
2. Crow-Armstrong • CHC 5.2
3. Raleigh • SEA 4.9
4. Peña • HOU 4.6
5. Witt • KCR 4.3
6. Wood • WSN 4.2
7. Tucker • CHC 4.1
8. Smith • LAD 4.0
9. Ohtani • LAD 4.0
10. Soto • NYM 3.8

I think Armstrong is playing a little over his head right now and it obviously helps to have a stud like Tucker in the lineup. Those players you speak of are exceedingly hard to come by and teams don't usually trade them. As shown by your list, they are pretty well not obtainable. I'd be happy with a few around 2.5 or so. We have one in Donovan but we could really use 2 more. Maybe a few of the young guys turn into that player. The problem is going to be paying them if they reach that plateau. Something DeWitt doesn't want to do.

You make some points - if we have one of this type of slugger like Tucker, it could make some of the young guys like IH, Noot, Gorman look a lot better. More ABs, more RBI chances, longer innings and more times thru the lineup every game. Which is exactly why we need an elite player - to make everyone around them better. Just adding more of the same level won't do that. Quality over quantity.

Meanwhile - remember this IS the Freaking STL Cardinals. We have brought in many All star and elite players this century: McGwire, Renteria, Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, Arenado. We absolutely can and should continue to make these types of trades to change the level of this franchise. Its not impossible, its just been a minute so many fans have forgotten it Can happen.

The bar has been lowered and seems everyone has joined the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity. As if some team’s mid prospects they don’t care to lose are going to all jump from the minors next year and become superstars for us.

Building a foundation from JAGs is worthless and is exactly what is going on and so many want to double down on it. This team needs a shot of star power. Overpay like everyone else, at least for one guy, preferably an OFer worth a (drat).

"Everyone else" doesn't over pay for 6+ WAR players. The Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, and maybe Phillies do.