Fools Gold - Stay The Course

[CCard]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

Rebuilds are fools gold. Even if, and it's the biggest IF in the dictionary, all the pieces and things come together, in 3 or 4 years most of the players will be back on the chopping block and they'll be crying about a rebuild again. Eventually you have to pay that young talent or they will leave. It's a perpetual losing recipe. Lose bad enough to draft high tier players, then expect them to come to fruition, then manage to get them all on the team at the same time, then hope they don't get injured and or suck at the MLB level. It's just a recipe for disaster. That's why the high payroll teams always seem to be going for the gold, because they are.

[DickyBennett]

Who's the core for the 2026 and beyond?

Winn
Donovan
Scott
Nootbaar
Wetherholt
McGreevey
Baez
Saggese
Bernal/Crooks
Gray
Pallante
Liberatore

The rest will or should probably be gone

Arenado
Burleson
Gorman
Walker
Fermin
Hampson
Baker
Fedde
Mikolas
Pages
Pozo
Helsley
Maton
Matz
Fernandez
O'Reilly
King
Romero

[Cranny]

Who's the core for the 2026 and beyond?

Winn
Donovan
Scott
Nootbaar
Wetherholt
McGreevey
Baez
Saggese
Bernal/Crooks
Gray
Pallante
Liberatore

The rest will or should probably be gone

Arenado
Burleson
Gorman
Walker
Fermin
Hampson
Baker
Fedde
Mikolas
Pages
Pozo
Helsley
Maton
Matz
Fernandez
O'Reilly
King
Romero

You don't want to trade Burleson, Gorman, or Walker.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Who's the core for the 2026 and beyond?

Winn
Donovan
Scott
Nootbaar
Wetherholt
McGreevey
Baez
Saggese
Bernal/Crooks
Gray
Pallante
Liberatore

The rest will or should probably be gone

Arenado
Burleson
Gorman
Walker
Fermin
Hampson
Baker
Fedde
Mikolas
Pages
Pozo
Helsley
Maton
Matz
Fernandez
O'Reilly
King
Romero

You don't want to trade Burleson, Gorman, or Walker.

Oh yes I do!

[Basil Shabazz]

Nearly 2 months later, I don't believe I was being to harsh.

Some in here need to decide how they like their crow cooked. BBQ’d? Roasted? Deep fried?

[3dender]

Nearly 2 months later, I don't believe I was being to harsh.

Some in here need to decide how they like their crow cooked. BBQ’d? Roasted? Deep fried?

Yup I've been right there with you on this the whole time.

It's continually funny to me how each year people don't seem to remember that every season has ups and downs, but it's long enough that teams almost always end up at their true level.

The Cards were punching way above their weight for awhile so it's only logical that there will be some deep troughs ahead. You just gotta enjoy the crests and weather the troughs. But at the end of the day this team will always be about what it was predicted to be, which is extremely mediocre and without much forward momentum.

[Clubmaker2]

its not a rebuild , its a reset. So I suggest the definition of reset is "wait out Mo's bad contracts to expire" which is MM, SM, and now EF add to the list. The team will return to its previous model, with hopefully bloom not whiffing on so many important contracts as Mo. If not , they will stink for the next couple of years. They need a solid starting pitcher and if they wait its fools gold as by the time they might develop one, Gray will be old and they have overall, gained no ground. They also have to resign/replace Maton and replace RH. Bloom has work to do.

yes, this team is not that good and should be full sellers, yet, what is the value left EF and RH are certainly lower than the off season and now EF is worth nothing as he is not good enough to start for a team that needs starters. Maybe SM has a little value. Sign or trade Maton a tiny bit of something. Perhaps it is so late and value so low, they are getting nothing unless a front runner loses a closer and is desperate.

[Carp4Cy]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

The return on trades for high cost vets is NOT going to make us a legit contender. It will barely move the needle and/or just cause more distraction.

Look at Saggesse yesterday - awful defense throwing home from 3b (not his first bad throw from 3b) and inability to hit against a top team. He is not the replacement for Nado. These guys we get in trade get hyped up because we want to believe that saving $$$ is the answer, then they turn into JAGs, maybe with a limited hot streak to support our confirmation bias, but in the end they don't get us there.

The only way we get better via trade is to target our needs First then go make offers and give up what we are willing to. If that's Alcantara or Robert? Ok, get it done as cheaply as possibly, because they are both risky. If its Ozuna or Eugenio Suarez? Those could be a game changer with a more limited window, but it could make sense while we still have Gray and Helsley and Maton, and Libby pitching pretty well. No one is a 111 win team this year line the 2022 Dodgers, so a 5-6 WAR player could make a big difference to our lineup, especially if we get everyone else healthy.

Remember 2006? - struggling with injuries all year, made some trades, got healthy then got hot again. Stuff can happen if you add the right talent and get healthy. You don't have to beat the Cubs in July to win a pennant. We've been here before.

[imetsatchelpaige]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

The return on trades for high cost vets is NOT going to make us a legit contender. It will barely move the needle and/or just cause more distraction.

Look at Saggesse yesterday - awful defense throwing home from 3b (not his first bad throw from 3b) and inability to hit against a top team. He is not the replacement for Nado. These guys we get in trade get hyped up because we want to believe that saving $$$ is the answer, then they turn into JAGs, maybe with a limited hot streak to support our confirmation bias, but in the end they don't get us there.

The only way we get better via trade is to target our needs First then go make offers and give up what we are willing to. If that's Alcantara or Robert? Ok, get it done as cheaply as possibly, because they are both risky. If its Ozuna or Eugenio Suarez? Those could be a game changer with a more limited window, but it could make sense while we still have Gray and Helsley and Maton, and Libby pitching pretty well. No one is a 111 win team this year line the 2022 Dodgers, so a 5-6 WAR player could make a big difference to our lineup, especially if we get everyone else healthy.

Remember 2006? - struggling with injuries all year, made some trades, got healthy then got hot again. Stuff can happen if you add the right talent and get healthy. You don't have to beat the Cubs in July to win a pennant. We've been here before.

Not really. This is not 2006, and this team has nowhere near the talent that one did (or AP).
You dream, sir.

[Basil Shabazz]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

The return on trades for high cost vets is NOT going to make us a legit contender. It will barely move the needle and/or just cause more distraction.

Look at Saggesse yesterday - awful defense throwing home from 3b (not his first bad throw from 3b) and inability to hit against a top team. He is not the replacement for Nado. These guys we get in trade get hyped up because we want to believe that saving $$$ is the answer, then they turn into JAGs, maybe with a limited hot streak to support our confirmation bias, but in the end they don't get us there.

The only way we get better via trade is to target our needs First then go make offers and give up what we are willing to. If that's Alcantara or Robert? Ok, get it done as cheaply as possibly, because they are both risky. If its Ozuna or Eugenio Suarez? Those could be a game changer with a more limited window, but it could make sense while we still have Gray and Helsley and Maton, and Libby pitching pretty well. No one is a 111 win team this year line the 2022 Dodgers, so a 5-6 WAR player could make a big difference to our lineup, especially if we get everyone else healthy.

Remember 2006? - struggling with injuries all year, made some trades, got healthy then got hot again. Stuff can happen if you add the right talent and get healthy. You don't have to beat the Cubs in July to win a pennant. We've been here before.

Come on man! TLR, AP, Rolen, CHRIS Carpenter, Edmonds, Yadi, DAVE Duncan

Compare that to Oli, Contreras, Nado, Gray, Noot, Donny, Pages, Blake, etc..


See the difference?

[3dender]

Remember 2006? - struggling with injuries all year, made some trades, got healthy then got hot again. Stuff can happen if you add the right talent and get healthy. You don't have to beat the Cubs in July to win a pennant. We've been here before.

This is the thought process of a gambling addict, not a rational actor.

It's the equivalent to that one time you beat pocket aces by outdrawing him to a gutshot, but instead of realizing you got really lucky on like 6% equity you've decided this means you should keep calling big bets with only 4 outs. The lesson is actually that in order to play solid poker you need to fold more.

[ClassicO]

I was with you on this thread, and I called for trading all the FAs on April 23 when Miko and Fedde were doing much better. Should have dealt with them long ago, but they had this ridiculous idea that this team could go somewhere.

viewtopic.php?p=13007054#p13007054

[Carp4Cy]

Remember 2006? - struggling with injuries all year, made some trades, got healthy then got hot again. Stuff can happen if you add the right talent and get healthy. You don't have to beat the Cubs in July to win a pennant. We've been here before.

This is the thought process of a gambling addict, not a rational actor.

It's the equivalent to that one time you beat pocket aces by outdrawing him to a gutshot, but instead of realizing you got really lucky on like 6% equity you've decided this means you should keep calling big bets with only 4 outs. The lesson is actually that in order to play solid poker you need to fold more.

But this isn't poker. Also, WC teams win a pennant a LOT more than 6% of the time, and they play in the NLCS more years than not. Those are goals worth trying for - baseball playoffs are iterative, not all or nothing like Poker. You win a series or two and the additional playoff revenue can fund additions to your team for the next year and sell season tickets. Not to mention the additional experience your players gain.

You build a better future by winning whatever you can now, not by folding. Study how to build a team in college sports, not how the Pirates and Marlins do it and fail. I'm not saying to keep everyone, but if trading Helsley, Maton, Matz, doesn't get us a better talent/Better WAR than them, then its not worth doing "just so we've done something". A bucket of balls or a lottery ticket is just a distraction from achieving our real goals.

[3dender]

Remember 2006? - struggling with injuries all year, made some trades, got healthy then got hot again. Stuff can happen if you add the right talent and get healthy. You don't have to beat the Cubs in July to win a pennant. We've been here before.

This is the thought process of a gambling addict, not a rational actor.

It's the equivalent to that one time you beat pocket aces by outdrawing him to a gutshot, but instead of realizing you got really lucky on like 6% equity you've decided this means you should keep calling big bets with only 4 outs. The lesson is actually that in order to play solid poker you need to fold more.

You build a better future by winning whatever you can now, not by folding.

This is just an oxymoron. You can say as many non sequiturs as you want but just saying them doesn't somehow make them sensible.

Your logic literally says no team should ever sell. I can't believe that's what you actually meant to say.

[Carp4Cy]

Remember 2006? - struggling with injuries all year, made some trades, got healthy then got hot again. Stuff can happen if you add the right talent and get healthy. You don't have to beat the Cubs in July to win a pennant. We've been here before.

This is the thought process of a gambling addict, not a rational actor.

It's the equivalent to that one time you beat pocket aces by outdrawing him to a gutshot, but instead of realizing you got really lucky on like 6% equity you've decided this means you should keep calling big bets with only 4 outs. The lesson is actually that in order to play solid poker you need to fold more.

You build a better future by winning whatever you can now, not by folding.

This is just an oxymoron. You can say as many non sequiturs as you want but just saying them doesn't somehow make them sensible.

Your logic literally says no team should ever sell. I can't believe that's what you actually meant to say.

There are more medals out there than just gold or iron pyrite. We aren't exactly in last place, so there's plenty of room for us to restock, reload with the talent the last place teams will make available this month, secure at least a WC team and maybe do some damage in October.

Gray, Libby, a healthy Ivan and Willson, plus Donny plus a couple other arms or bats we add to the roster has a greater than gamblers chance of winning a series and putting some fans back into the stands. Cause that's what its going to take. Its called momentum. We don't have to win it all for 2025 to be an improvement over 2023 and 2024, and we are more/less on track for something like that if we make the right moves.

And the downside doing something isn't exactly that bad. Its not like we are going to be trading away the next Steve Carlton for a rental. That level of prospect doesn't exist here. Further, many/most of our best players from the past 30 years started their cardinal careers as rentals or trade targets.

[Basil Shabazz]

Fedde should be an extension candidate based on the past 1.5 years

Credibility?