The Cardinals with Kyle Tucker.

[WLTFE]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

+1...I share season tix in Section 148....a lot of fans have not renewed and people are grumbling about DeTwit and Mo-ran. Fans are getting tired of being taken for granted...and the few Front Office (donkey) kissers here can't change that

[AZ_Cardsfan]

How much will the potential work stoppage effect signing FA's to big money this coming offseason?
Can a team insure against that risk reasonably?

This is a bigger factor than some think. I think the reset coincided with this issue by no accident. STL is hunkering down to weather the coming storm.

[Talkin' Baseball]

How much will the potential work stoppage effect signing FA's to big money this coming offseason?
Can a team insure against that risk reasonably?

This is a bigger factor than some think. I think the reset coincided with this issue by no accident. STL is hunkering down to weather the coming storm.

Agree

[Bob Kunush]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

I cant believe someone thinks the 8th largest city in the US is a comparable market to St. Louis.

[Bad14]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

I cant believe someone thinks the 8th largest city in the US is a comparable market to St. Louis.

Good point

[desertrat23]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

I cant believe someone thinks the 8th largest city in the US is a comparable market to St. Louis.

Is it? Look beyond population. The Padres have to compete with LA/Orange County, so revenue pie is split. Until the Cardinals went in the tank they regularly outdrew San Diego. The Padres have NO FanDuel money; MLB took over the broadcasts while FanDuel kept the Cardinals. The Padres have no team-owned luxury high-rise development outside Petco. Unless their corporate sponsorships are GROSSLY outpacing the Cardinals, it’s a fair comparison.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

I cant believe someone thinks the 8th largest city in the US is a comparable market to St. Louis.

Is it? Look beyond population. The Padres have to compete with LA/Orange County, so revenue pie is split. Until the Cardinals went in the tank they regularly outdrew San Diego. The Padres have NO FanDuel money; MLB took over the broadcasts while FanDuel kept the Cardinals. The Padres have no team-owned luxury high-rise development outside Petco. Unless their corporate sponsorships are GROSSLY outpacing the Cardinals, it’s a fair comparison.

Do the Cardinals own Ballpark Village? I tho0ught that was an independent entity.

[desertrat23]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

I cant believe someone thinks the 8th largest city in the US is a comparable market to St. Louis.

Is it? Look beyond population. The Padres have to compete with LA/Orange County, so revenue pie is split. Until the Cardinals went in the tank they regularly outdrew San Diego. The Padres have NO FanDuel money; MLB took over the broadcasts while FanDuel kept the Cardinals. The Padres have no team-owned luxury high-rise development outside Petco. Unless their corporate sponsorships are GROSSLY outpacing the Cardinals, it’s a fair comparison.

Do the Cardinals own Ballpark Village? I tho0ught that was an independent entity.

Joint venture with Cordish, a real estate developer, but yes, they’re bringing in the dough.

[Cranny]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

I don't know how anyone could look at the rows and rows of empty seats and think, "Yes, it's the FANS who are wrong."

You know, rat, there are lots of reasons why the attendance is down. Not just your reason.

Right. But the investment and effort toward the roster is a controllable reason.

Totally depends on pro forma revenue.

[Hazelwood72]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

Well, Cranny, with your “spoiled fans” comment, you have outed yourself as a member of the Cards front office. If I didn’t know any better, I’d bet you are Bill DeWitt III. He sounded just like that during the off-season.

[desertrat23]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

I don't know how anyone could look at the rows and rows of empty seats and think, "Yes, it's the FANS who are wrong."

You know, rat, there are lots of reasons why the attendance is down. Not just your reason.

Right. But the investment and effort toward the roster is a controllable reason.

Totally depends on pro forma revenue.

OK, but we keep treading this ground -- if they see declining revenue, what are their options? Cut expenses, but we all know the old adage about how "you can't cut your way to profitability." The Dodgers sign Shohei Ohtani to a $700M contract -- you don't think they're going to see a return on that investment with increased revenue? Sure they are. More jersey sales, more ticket sales, higher TV ratings, etc. Obviously the Cardinals will never play in that deep water. They don't really have to. But does signing Kyle Tucker to complement this young core result in another 250,000 through the gates in 2026? I bet it does. Another 500,000? Maybe, if the team is winning. Does it result in a 10% bump in season-ticket renewals? Maybe, maybe not. But it's clear what bump they'll get from doing nothing.

Not investing in payroll is a death spiral, and it's going to cost more to get out of it the longer they wait.

[Cranny]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

Well, Cranny, with your “spoiled fans” comment, you have outed yourself as a member of the Cards front office. If I didn’t know any better, I’d bet you are Bill DeWitt III. He sounded just like that during the off-season.

Okay then, let’s use another term. How about “expectant fans”. Is that better? Fans who expect another World Series win because - well -

1.) They expect it.
2.) They don’t care what it costs because they expect it and deserve it.

That the Cards should compete with the big boys because - They used to before payrolls went crazy.
And by golly no matter what the revenues are, they can afford it because they’re all lazy, fat cat billionaires.

[Goldfan]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

Well, Cranny, with your “spoiled fans” comment, you have outed yourself as a member of the Cards front office. If I didn’t know any better, I’d bet you are Bill DeWitt III. He sounded just like that during the off-season.

Okay then, let’s use another term. How about “expectant fans”. Is that better? Fans who expect another World Series win because - well -

1.) They expect it.
2.) They don’t care what it costs because they expect it and deserve it.

That the Cards should compete with the big boys because - They used to before payrolls went crazy.
And by golly no matter what the revenues are, they can afford it because they’re all lazy, fat cat billionaires.

I’m just spitballing off the top of my head so someone please verify these numbers, but if BDW can afford
NA-25mil
Miles-18mil
Matz-12mil
Fedde-5/6mil
Helsley- 4/5mil
That’s 55mil that can be offloaded from an already greatly reduced 2025 payroll and Cranny still thinks that BDW can’t afford a top of league player for factoring in 55mil???
Cranny, do you think the Stl. Cardinals should or will have a payroll of the Pirates, Marlins???
At some point your bellyaching about BDW poor wallet loses any adherence to reality!!

[desertrat23]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

Well, Cranny, with your “spoiled fans” comment, you have outed yourself as a member of the Cards front office. If I didn’t know any better, I’d bet you are Bill DeWitt III. He sounded just like that during the off-season.

Okay then, let’s use another term. How about “expectant fans”. Is that better? Fans who expect another World Series win because - well -

1.) They expect it.
2.) They don’t care what it costs because they expect it and deserve it.

That the Cards should compete with the big boys because - They used to before payrolls went crazy.
And by golly no matter what the revenues are, they can afford it because they’re all lazy, fat cat billionaires.

Don't you get tired of attaching arguments to people they're not making?
NO ONE EXPECTS THE CARDINALS TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES.
WE EXPECT THEM TO TRY.
WE DESERVE THEIR TRYING.
SO DO YOU.
SO SHOULD YOU.

[Cranny]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

Well, Cranny, with your “spoiled fans” comment, you have outed yourself as a member of the Cards front office. If I didn’t know any better, I’d bet you are Bill DeWitt III. He sounded just like that during the off-season.

Okay then, let’s use another term. How about “expectant fans”. Is that better? Fans who expect another World Series win because - well -

1.) They expect it.
2.) They don’t care what it costs because they expect it and deserve it.

That the Cards should compete with the big boys because - They used to before payrolls went crazy.
And by golly no matter what the revenues are, they can afford it because they’re all lazy, fat cat billionaires.

Don't you get tired of attaching arguments to people they're not making?
NO ONE EXPECTS THE CARDINALS TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES.
WE EXPECT THEM TO TRY.
WE DESERVE THEIR TRYING.
SO DO YOU.
SO SHOULD YOU.

And I do. By developing strength from within.
Because trying to buy it rarely works.

[desertrat23]

After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

Well, Cranny, with your “spoiled fans” comment, you have outed yourself as a member of the Cards front office. If I didn’t know any better, I’d bet you are Bill DeWitt III. He sounded just like that during the off-season.

Okay then, let’s use another term. How about “expectant fans”. Is that better? Fans who expect another World Series win because - well -

1.) They expect it.
2.) They don’t care what it costs because they expect it and deserve it.

That the Cards should compete with the big boys because - They used to before payrolls went crazy.
And by golly no matter what the revenues are, they can afford it because they’re all lazy, fat cat billionaires.

Don't you get tired of attaching arguments to people they're not making?
NO ONE EXPECTS THE CARDINALS TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES.
WE EXPECT THEM TO TRY.
WE DESERVE THEIR TRYING.
SO DO YOU.
SO SHOULD YOU.

And I do. By developing strength from within.
Because trying to buy it rarely works.

It takes both developing and supplementing from the market. Not having one or the other is not a recipe for serious winning.