When was the shifting point when the Cardinals decided power didn’t matter ?

[Cranny]

it's probably not a developmental problem. It's a philosophy problem...or not a problem...just a philosophy. We value contact over power and miss now in our drafts....look at 2022 through 2024 Drafts....Contact and EV and Walks over Power and Miss. Maybe one or two players will hit for power...but if they don't so be it.

Not so sure about that concept, Craviduce. Look at the past 7 years -

2018 - They took Gorman in the 1st round and Baker in the 2C round. Both power picks.
2019 - They took Fletcher as a power pick in the 2nd round
2020 - They took Walker in the 2nd round. Huge power potential
2021 - They took Baez in the 2nd round. Big power potential
2022 - They took Crooks, who had 11 HRs in 311 PAs for OU.
2023 - They took Davis in the 1st round, who had 21 HRs in 278 PAs for Arizona
2024 - They took Campos had 11 HRs in 284 PAs for ASU and Kloss had 19 HR in 272 PAs at U. of Cincinnati.

the question was when was the shift....I provided the timeline, the players taken fit the pattern. Your new Hitting Coach, Brown fits the pattern.... HIT over Power.

And Campos is a terrible example, Cranny. If the player hits for power, so be it, Campos can do neither, he wasn't drafted for his bat, he was drafted b/c he could get low to the plate...and that backfired on the Cards, b/c he SUCKS as a catcher with a Pro Squad.

They've cornered/targeted Hit and High EV players the last 3 drafts, Crooks included. Ignore anything before 2022, because they changed approaches.

and don't cherry pick one player....look at all the hitters...there's a theme.


Church, Honeyman, Petrutz, Harris, Paige, Richardson, Crooks, Scott, Jobert, Gazdar, Martin, McGee, Madron....hit and EV over Power and Miss.

When you refer to 2023 and I point out that our 1st round pick that year hit 21 home runs in 278 PAs as a college junior, that's not cherry picking. It's just a fact that they went for power that year in the first round.

the draft is longer than 1 round....incredible fact, but true. Davis' selection does NOT indicate the Cards drafted Power the last 3 seasons...Again...use the list of players I provided above...they may have a hit a homer or 9 in college, but their profile is HIT and EV....not POWER and MISS.

This is big shift in our former drafting philosophy (2018-2021), where we believed power was the play....and it burned us more times than not

even Baez changed his hitting approach to Hit and EV...gone are his high Flyball %, this season he has more Ground Balls and Line Drives..less miss. Higher EV's for Baez

Incredible, the change the organization has under gone in Philosophy.

Actually, going all the way back the Cardinals drafted heavy for pitching and used some of those pitcher trade chips to bring in power bats as needed. That may be the change in philosophy that you’re referring to.

[Cranny]

it's probably not a developmental problem. It's a philosophy problem...or not a problem...just a philosophy. We value contact over power and miss now in our drafts....look at 2022 through 2024 Drafts....Contact and EV and Walks over Power and Miss. Maybe one or two players will hit for power...but if they don't so be it.

Not so sure about that concept, Craviduce. Look at the past 7 years -

2018 - They took Gorman in the 1st round and Baker in the 2C round. Both power picks.
2019 - They took Fletcher as a power pick in the 2nd round
2020 - They took Walker in the 2nd round. Huge power potential
2021 - They took Baez in the 2nd round. Big power potential
2022 - They took Crooks, who had 11 HRs in 311 PAs for OU.
2023 - They took Davis in the 1st round, who had 21 HRs in 278 PAs for Arizona
2024 - They took Campos had 11 HRs in 284 PAs for ASU and Kloss had 19 HR in 272 PAs at U. of Cincinnati.

the question was when was the shift....I provided the timeline, the players taken fit the pattern. Your new Hitting Coach, Brown fits the pattern.... HIT over Power.

And Campos is a terrible example, Cranny. If the player hits for power, so be it, Campos can do neither, he wasn't drafted for his bat, he was drafted b/c he could get low to the plate...and that backfired on the Cards, b/c he SUCKS as a catcher with a Pro Squad.

They've cornered/targeted Hit and High EV players the last 3 drafts, Crooks included. Ignore anything before 2022, because they changed approaches.

and don't cherry pick one player....look at all the hitters...there's a theme.


Church, Honeyman, Petrutz, Harris, Paige, Richardson, Crooks, Scott, Jobert, Gazdar, Martin, McGee, Madron....hit and EV over Power and Miss.

Craviduce -

I’ve been looking up the stats of our draftees right after the draft for over 20 years.

You cite Cade McGee as an example. He hit
15 home runs in 57 games for Texas Tech the year he was drafted.

Trey Paige? He hit 14 home runs in 48 games the year he was drafted.

Brayden Jobert? He hit 14 home runs in 60 games the year he was drafted.

Jon Jon Gazdar hit 13 home runs in only 56 games for AP.

Bryce Madron hit 12 home runs in only 55 games for the Sooners.

I look for 2 things that a draftee brings to the table - power or speed. And over the last several years have actually been very pleased that the power numbers among draftees has increased, not decreased.

[Cranny]

it's probably not a developmental problem. It's a philosophy problem...or not a problem...just a philosophy. We value contact over power and miss now in our drafts....look at 2022 through 2024 Drafts....Contact and EV and Walks over Power and Miss. Maybe one or two players will hit for power...but if they don't so be it.

Not so sure about that concept, Craviduce. Look at the past 7 years -

2018 - They took Gorman in the 1st round and Baker in the 2C round. Both power picks.
2019 - They took Fletcher as a power pick in the 2nd round
2020 - They took Walker in the 2nd round. Huge power potential
2021 - They took Baez in the 2nd round. Big power potential
2022 - They took Crooks, who had 11 HRs in 311 PAs for OU.
2023 - They took Davis in the 1st round, who had 21 HRs in 278 PAs for Arizona
2024 - They took Campos had 11 HRs in 284 PAs for ASU and Kloss had 19 HR in 272 PAs at U. of Cincinnati.

the question was when was the shift....I provided the timeline, the players taken fit the pattern. Your new Hitting Coach, Brown fits the pattern.... HIT over Power.

And Campos is a terrible example, Cranny. If the player hits for power, so be it, Campos can do neither, he wasn't drafted for his bat, he was drafted b/c he could get low to the plate...and that backfired on the Cards, b/c he SUCKS as a catcher with a Pro Squad.

They've cornered/targeted Hit and High EV players the last 3 drafts, Crooks included. Ignore anything before 2022, because they changed approaches.

and don't cherry pick one player....look at all the hitters...there's a theme.


Church, Honeyman, Petrutz, Harris, Paige, Richardson, Crooks, Scott, Jobert, Gazdar, Martin, McGee, Madron....hit and EV over Power and Miss.

Craviduce -

I’ve been looking up the stats of our draftees right after the draft for over 20 years.

You cite Cade McGee as an example. He hit
15 home runs in 57 games for Texas Tech the year he was drafted.

Trey Paige? He hit 14 home runs in 48 games the year he was drafted.

Brayden Jobert? He hit 14 home runs in 60 games the year he was drafted.

Jon Jon Gazdar hit 13 home runs in only 56 games for AP.

Bryce Madron hit 12 home runs in only 55 games for the Sooners.

I look for 2 things that a draftee brings to the table - power or speed. And over the last several years I have actually been very pleased that the power numbers among our draftees have increased, not decreased.

[Youboughtit]

Busch 3 plays big. The answer is someone with legit power at 1 position. I advocated for Alonso. His power plays here but there are very few that can. If the cardinals want to get power bringing the fence in would be the answer but then this type of pitching won’t work

[icon]

It’s mind boggling watching mlb highlights, looking at leader board power numbers, and realizing that the Cardinals arent playing the same sport as everyone else.

Goldy leaving zapped a lot of our power potential, but I hear ya. Garcia and Nunez didn’t make it here. That hurt as well. Gorman can’t hit a high fastball. Walker keeps stepping in the bucket.

Goldy has all of 8 HRs and a career-low ISO of .149.

[craviduce]

it's probably not a developmental problem. It's a philosophy problem...or not a problem...just a philosophy. We value contact over power and miss now in our drafts....look at 2022 through 2024 Drafts....Contact and EV and Walks over Power and Miss. Maybe one or two players will hit for power...but if they don't so be it.

Not so sure about that concept, Craviduce. Look at the past 7 years -

2018 - They took Gorman in the 1st round and Baker in the 2C round. Both power picks.
2019 - They took Fletcher as a power pick in the 2nd round
2020 - They took Walker in the 2nd round. Huge power potential
2021 - They took Baez in the 2nd round. Big power potential
2022 - They took Crooks, who had 11 HRs in 311 PAs for OU.
2023 - They took Davis in the 1st round, who had 21 HRs in 278 PAs for Arizona
2024 - They took Campos had 11 HRs in 284 PAs for ASU and Kloss had 19 HR in 272 PAs at U. of Cincinnati.

the question was when was the shift....I provided the timeline, the players taken fit the pattern. Your new Hitting Coach, Brown fits the pattern.... HIT over Power.

And Campos is a terrible example, Cranny. If the player hits for power, so be it, Campos can do neither, he wasn't drafted for his bat, he was drafted b/c he could get low to the plate...and that backfired on the Cards, b/c he SUCKS as a catcher with a Pro Squad.

They've cornered/targeted Hit and High EV players the last 3 drafts, Crooks included. Ignore anything before 2022, because they changed approaches.

and don't cherry pick one player....look at all the hitters...there's a theme.


Church, Honeyman, Petrutz, Harris, Paige, Richardson, Crooks, Scott, Jobert, Gazdar, Martin, McGee, Madron....hit and EV over Power and Miss.

Craviduce -

I’ve been looking up the stats of our draftees right after the draft for over 20 years.

You cite Cade McGee as an example. He hit
15 home runs in 57 games for Texas Tech the year he was drafted.

Trey Paige? He hit 14 home runs in 48 games the year he was drafted.

Brayden Jobert? He hit 14 home runs in 60 games the year he was drafted.

Jon Jon Gazdar hit 13 home runs in only 56 games for AP.

Bryce Madron hit 12 home runs in only 55 games for the Sooners.

I look for 2 things that a draftee brings to the table - power or speed. And over the last several years I have actually been very pleased that the power numbers among our draftees have increased, not decreased.

and none of those guys, with the exception of maybe Brayden Jobert has any sort of power with a Wooden Bat in the Pros.....NONE. Trey Paige has 3 HR this season, 2 HR last year. Gazdar has none....his H to XBH ratio is 7 to 1....he's very good hitter, but he's just that...a hitter. Madron has 1 HR this year..

----------

PLEASE STOP quoting numbers with an Aluminum Bat. None of them were power hitters in college, and none are power hitters with a Wooden Bat.

If you must use College data, use their Summer League numbers (Wooden Bats), or really try and delve deep into their Combine numbers.

[WLTFE]

it's probably not a developmental problem. It's a philosophy problem...or not a problem...just a philosophy. We value contact over power and miss now in our drafts....look at 2022 through 2024 Drafts....Contact and EV and Walks over Power and Miss. Maybe one or two players will hit for power...but if they don't so be it.

Not so sure about that concept, Craviduce. Look at the past 7 years -

2018 - They took Gorman in the 1st round and Baker in the 2C round. Both power picks.
2019 - They took Fletcher as a power pick in the 2nd round
2020 - They took Walker in the 2nd round. Huge power potential
2021 - They took Baez in the 2nd round. Big power potential
2022 - They took Crooks, who had 11 HRs in 311 PAs for OU.
2023 - They took Davis in the 1st round, who had 21 HRs in 278 PAs for Arizona
2024 - They took Campos had 11 HRs in 284 PAs for ASU and Kloss had 19 HR in 272 PAs at U. of Cincinnati.

the question was when was the shift....I provided the timeline, the players taken fit the pattern. Your new Hitting Coach, Brown fits the pattern.... HIT over Power.

And Campos is a terrible example, Cranny. If the player hits for power, so be it, Campos can do neither, he wasn't drafted for his bat, he was drafted b/c he could get low to the plate...and that backfired on the Cards, b/c he SUCKS as a catcher with a Pro Squad.

They've cornered/targeted Hit and High EV players the last 3 drafts, Crooks included. Ignore anything before 2022, because they changed approaches.

and don't cherry pick one player....look at all the hitters...there's a theme.


Church, Honeyman, Petrutz, Harris, Paige, Richardson, Crooks, Scott, Jobert, Gazdar, Martin, McGee, Madron....hit and EV over Power and Miss.

Craviduce -

I’ve been looking up the stats of our draftees right after the draft for over 20 years.

You cite Cade McGee as an example. He hit
15 home runs in 57 games for Texas Tech the year he was drafted.

Trey Paige? He hit 14 home runs in 48 games the year he was drafted.

Brayden Jobert? He hit 14 home runs in 60 games the year he was drafted.

Jon Jon Gazdar hit 13 home runs in only 56 games for AP.

Bryce Madron hit 12 home runs in only 55 games for the Sooners.

I look for 2 things that a draftee brings to the table - power or speed. And over the last several years I have actually been very pleased that the power numbers among our draftees have increased, not decreased.

and none of those guys, with the exception of maybe Brayden Jobert has any sort of power with a Wooden Bat in the Pros.....NONE. Trey Paige has 3 HR this season, 2 HR last year. Gazdar has none....his H to XBH ratio is 7 to 1....he's very good hitter, but he's just that...a hitter. Madron has 1 HR this year..

----------

PLEASE STOP quoting numbers with an Aluminum Bat. None of them were power hitters in college, and none are power hitters with a Wooden Bat.

If you must use College data, use their Summer League numbers (Wooden Bats), or really try and delve deep into their Combine numbers.

+1... appreciate your analysis...makes sense.

[BrockFloodMaris]

It’s mind boggling watching mlb highlights, looking at leader board power numbers, and realizing that the Cardinals arent playing the same sport as everyone else.

Goldy leaving zapped a lot of our power potential, but I hear ya. Garcia and Nunez didn’t make it here. That hurt as well. Gorman can’t hit a high fastball. Walker keeps stepping in the bucket.

Goldy has all of 8 HRs and a career-low ISO of .149.

When the Cards traded for him and through his mvp season, he was a power bat. He was here to hit the ball a long way. At the time, the Cards thought that HRs and doubles mattered. I am supporting the OP’s point about when the Cards stopped valuing power.

[Cranny]

It’s mind boggling watching mlb highlights, looking at leader board power numbers, and realizing that the Cardinals arent playing the same sport as everyone else.

Goldy leaving zapped a lot of our power potential, but I hear ya. Garcia and Nunez didn’t make it here. That hurt as well. Gorman can’t hit a high fastball. Walker keeps stepping in the bucket.

Goldy has all of 8 HRs and a career-low ISO of .149.

When the Cards traded for him and through his mvp season, he was a power bat. He was here to hit the ball a long way. At the time, the Cards thought that HRs and doubles mattered. I am supporting the OP’s point about when the Cards stopped valuing power.

Then why have the Cardinals drafted more players with double digit home run totals in the last several years, than the years before?

[BrockFloodMaris]

It’s mind boggling watching mlb highlights, looking at leader board power numbers, and realizing that the Cardinals arent playing the same sport as everyone else.

Goldy leaving zapped a lot of our power potential, but I hear ya. Garcia and Nunez didn’t make it here. That hurt as well. Gorman can’t hit a high fastball. Walker keeps stepping in the bucket.

Goldy has all of 8 HRs and a career-low ISO of .149.

When the Cards traded for him and through his mvp season, he was a power bat. He was here to hit the ball a long way. At the time, the Cards thought that HRs and doubles mattered. I am supporting the OP’s point about when the Cards stopped valuing power.

Then why have the Cardinals drafted more players with double digit home run totals in the last several years, than the years before?

Maybe the better question is “when did the Cards lose their way in developing power bats for the MLB roster”? Other than yesterday and a handful of other games this year, the Cards have not relied on the long ball much at all. Aren’t they near the bottom of MLB in home runs this season?

[Cranny]

it's probably not a developmental problem. It's a philosophy problem...or not a problem...just a philosophy. We value contact over power and miss now in our drafts....look at 2022 through 2024 Drafts....Contact and EV and Walks over Power and Miss. Maybe one or two players will hit for power...but if they don't so be it.

Not so sure about that concept, Craviduce. Look at the past 7 years -

2018 - They took Gorman in the 1st round and Baker in the 2C round. Both power picks.
2019 - They took Fletcher as a power pick in the 2nd round
2020 - They took Walker in the 2nd round. Huge power potential
2021 - They took Baez in the 2nd round. Big power potential
2022 - They took Crooks, who had 11 HRs in 311 PAs for OU.
2023 - They took Davis in the 1st round, who had 21 HRs in 278 PAs for Arizona
2024 - They took Campos had 11 HRs in 284 PAs for ASU and Kloss had 19 HR in 272 PAs at U. of Cincinnati.

the question was when was the shift....I provided the timeline, the players taken fit the pattern. Your new Hitting Coach, Brown fits the pattern.... HIT over Power.

And Campos is a terrible example, Cranny. If the player hits for power, so be it, Campos can do neither, he wasn't drafted for his bat, he was drafted b/c he could get low to the plate...and that backfired on the Cards, b/c he SUCKS as a catcher with a Pro Squad.

They've cornered/targeted Hit and High EV players the last 3 drafts, Crooks included. Ignore anything before 2022, because they changed approaches.

and don't cherry pick one player....look at all the hitters...there's a theme.


Church, Honeyman, Petrutz, Harris, Paige, Richardson, Crooks, Scott, Jobert, Gazdar, Martin, McGee, Madron....hit and EV over Power and Miss.

Craviduce -

I’ve been looking up the stats of our draftees right after the draft for over 20 years.

You cite Cade McGee as an example. He hit
15 home runs in 57 games for Texas Tech the year he was drafted.

Trey Paige? He hit 14 home runs in 48 games the year he was drafted.

Brayden Jobert? He hit 14 home runs in 60 games the year he was drafted.

Jon Jon Gazdar hit 13 home runs in only 56 games for AP.

Bryce Madron hit 12 home runs in only 55 games for the Sooners.

I look for 2 things that a draftee brings to the table - power or speed. And over the last several years I have actually been very pleased that the power numbers among our draftees have increased, not decreased.

and none of those guys, with the exception of maybe Brayden Jobert has any sort of power with a Wooden Bat in the Pros.....NONE. Trey Paige has 3 HR this season, 2 HR last year. Gazdar has none....his H to XBH ratio is 7 to 1....he's very good hitter, but he's just that...a hitter. Madron has 1 HR this year..

----------

PLEASE STOP quoting numbers with an Aluminum Bat. None of them were power hitters in college, and none are power hitters with a Wooden Bat.

If you must use College data, use their Summer League numbers (Wooden Bats), or really try and delve deep into their Combine numbers.

I don’t care if they hit home runs with a metal bat, a wooden bat, a toothpick, or a wet noodle. The number of home runs they hit for their school is a differentiator when looking at draftees. And it generally rolls over to the pros. Example? I saw that Matt Adams had hit 14 home runs in 54 games for Slippery Rock.

The Cardinals don’t know how to develop power hitters. And if they do have potential power hitters in the minors, they tend to trade them. Like with Garcia and Arozarena. Even Lane Thomas ended up hitting 28 home runs for the Nats one year.