Cup Winning Centers

[TheHighHat]

Thank you for this exercise. Thomas is 26 in a couple weeks. Four more seasons in his 20s. Dvorsky turned 20 last weekend. Obviously he will need most if not all of that 4 years to ramp up to being a Stanley Cup caliber 2C. This was why I coveted Desnoyers when the Blues were in range and he was still being mock drafted at 7 or 8. I've been consistently insistent that the top 4 is Schaefer Misa Desnoyers and Frondell, sometimes swapping Desnoyers and Frondell.

The precise reason I ranked Desnoyers and Frondell ahead of Hagens is that the final run of prospect rankings always occurs in the heads of men who are also watching the final two rounds of the Cup playoffs and they start thinking more about application of the player to that specific situation. When that occurs, Desnoyers goes up and Hagens goes down. Hagens isn't this caliber of center, he is too small to defend. Desnoyers is a player who will be playing in those final games.

How much better is Schaefer than Misa? If Schaefer was a right shot I wouldn't even ask the question.
The reason I ask is because the Islanders desperately need a 1C
Their current 1C (Horvat) is really a 2C who is 30 years old and has 6 years left at 8.5
Their current 2C (Pageau) is really a 3C who is pushing 33 and might get traded so there is a huge need for a top center.
Everything I've read is that at best Ritchie will be a 2C

There are rumors that Utah might trade pick #4 for immediate help.
Dobson's name has been brought up which would allow NY to draft a center at #4 and still draft Schaefer at #1
Of course the hometown kid (Hagens) would be the popular pick there.
Dobson to the Mammoth for #4 and Durzi?
I believe Armstrong should keep the pick and draft one of the centers unless he is certain that Hayton has turned the corner and will be his 2C for years to come.

[theograce]

Finally, for Theograce: O'Reilly won a Cup PERIOD...best, worst, whatever he won a cup and was recognized independently as the MVP for that. YOU really need to control yourself and try to think before you post.

None of that changes the facts I presented. They seem too irritate you to the point of deflection

You presented NO facts.

Of course I did. ROR is well know for long periods of mental lapses, emotional issues, poor behavior, poor play. It’s well documented and his performances have reflected that

Post his stats from the 1st 2 rounds. It’s not my fault you’re uneducated on all of it. Educate yourself as opposed to deflection and denial

[TheHighHat]

I would think that’s mostly because any team with half a brain don’t let Cup winning 1C or 2C ever get to UFA. If they’re that good you keep them and if negotiations break down you trade them so you at least get something back.

The other part of this is that there have been many Cup winning centers that were retained by their team but never won again once they turned 30. Even the great Sidney Crosby.

Do you think GM's across the league are aware of this trend? I don't.
Scheifele signed a 7 year deal at age 30

Chris Drury already had two 30(+) year old centers but went out and traded for another.
Do you think is he is aware of this trend? He seems clueless to me.

I get it that you can't just let every top center near 30 leave but you have to be aware of this trend when you're thinking about signing UFA centers in their late 20's or even trading for a center in their late 20's

I also understand that many teams are just trying to ice a competitive team to get butts in the seats and keep the franchise going.

I will say that the most recent trend is that very young centers seem like they are taking a few more years to develop than other times in history.

[TheHighHat]

In 2013 the second line center was Handzus.

But he was 35.
That doesn't fit the narrative so the facts have to change.

Doesn't change the narrative. It just means there have been five 30(+) year old 2c's instead of 4.

[roadkillIL]

OOF.....That had to string! Old Goat on a roll. Keep up the good work.

[theograce]

I will say that the most recent trend is that very young centers seem like they are taking a few more years to develop than other times in history.

The playoffs are a different universe. It’s an older man’s game as opposed to a boy game…both physically and psychologically.

[rezero]

R0R was only a first line center. Because of the team he played on.

I'd bet if you looked further you'd notice that most top teams throughout that period had at least three of there top five point getters under 26.

ROR was an elite center when we won the cup….elite. People who do not understand hockey only look at goals and assists, but when your center can absolutely shut down the other teams top line, that is elite. The Boston top line could not get anything going against our top line. There is a reason Florida has overwhelmed teams other top lines and that is Barkov. McDavid was completely neutralized, similarly to what ROR did to other teams top lines. To win the cup you need an elite defensive center.

[dhsux]

Yearly Update:

I decided to do some research about the top 2 line centers for each team that has won the Cup in the Salary Cap Era.
The Cap Era now has 20 years under its belt.

My research came up with some startling facts:

Only one #1 center (Backstrom) was 30 years old and an argument can be made that Kuznetsov was the Caps #1 center that playoff year because Backstrom missed time due to injury & Kuznetsov led the Caps in points. I still gave the nod to Backstrom because of ATOI

Only four #2 centers (Kadri, Malkin, B. Richards, & Brind' Amour) were 30(+) years old.

Average age of #1 centers: 25.85
Average age of #2 centers: 27.7

ZERO #1 centers were signed as an UFA.
Only one #2 center (B. Richards) was signed as an UFA and that was only a one year deal after he was bought out of his contract in NY. Not your typical July 1st UFA.

Only two #1 centers (Eichel & O'Reilly) were acquired via trade.
Seven #2 centers were acquired via trade.
Zero of those 9 centers acquired via trade were acquired at the trade deadline of their winning year.
Jeff Carter was acquired near the TDL in 2012 but played mostly RW that year. He also took some time as the Kings 3C as well.

Summary:
Don't expect to win the Cup if your 1C is 30+, signed as an UFA, or acquired at the TDL.
UFA & TDL also applies to your 2C
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salary Cap Era Cup winning teams and their top two centers, age at Cup win, & how they were acquired:

2025
A. Barkov (29) Draft
S. Bennett (28) Trade (turned 29 three days after hoisting the Cup)

2024
A. Barkov (28) Draft
S. Bennett (28) Trade

2023
J. Eichel (26) Trade
C. Stephenson (29) Trade

2022
N. MacKinnon (26) Draft
N. Kadri (31) Trade

2021
B. Point (25) Draft
A. Cirelli (23) Draft

2020
B. Point (24) Draft
A. Cirelli (22) Draft

2019
R. O'Reilly (28) Trade
B. Schenn (27) Trade

2018
N. Backstrom (30) Draft
E. Kuznetsov (26) Draft

2017
S. Crosby (29) Draft
E. Malkin (30) Draft

2016
S. Crosby (28) Draft
E. Malkin (29) Draft

2015
J. Toews (27) Draft
B. Richards (35) UFA

2014
A. Kopitar (27) Draft
J. Carter (29) Trade

2013
J. Toews (25) Draft
D. Bolland (27) Draft

2012
A. Kopitar (25) Draft
M. Richards (27) Trade

2011
P. Bergeron (25) Draft
D. Krejci (25) Draft

2010
J. Toews (22) Draft
D. Bolland (24) Draft

2009
S. Crosby (21) Draft
E. Malkin (22) Draft

2008
P. Datsyuk (29) Draft
H. Zetterberg (28) Draft

2007
R. Getzlaf (22) Draft
A. McDonald (29) Undrafted FA

2006
E. Staal (21) Draft
R. Brind'Amour (35) Trade
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The moral of the story: Grow your own.
Draft centers and then ditch them if they're still your #1 or #2 center before they turn 30.
Don't sign UFA centers for your top 2 lines if you want to win a Cup.
Keep your 1st round picks at all costs unless the trade return is a no-brainer.

Other notes:
O'Reilly is the only #1 center that never scored 30 goals in a season.
O'Reilly and Bergeron are the only #1 centers that never reached 80 points in a season.

Obviously ROR has always been considered a #2 center type, but he carried the mail for us in the playoffs as our #1 center.
I gave him the #1 center slot over Schenn because ROR had more ice time & points than Schenn even though Brayden centered our 2 best wingers.

There are a few other years that are debatable as to whom the #1 & #2 centers (and in some cases #2 & #3) were, but it really doesn't change the facts presented here.

You can always say that past results are no guarantee of future results, but I would not try to buck this 20 year trend.
The trend is your friend until the end.

Recent Cup champs Barkov, MacKinnon, and Point are all turning 30 before the 26 playoffs.
History tells us no three-peat for the Panthers and that the Avs & Bolts won't win either in 26

McDavid will be 29 in next year's playoffs.

Great thread and post. Thank you.

[theograce]

R0R was only a first line center. Because of the team he played on.

I'd bet if you looked further you'd notice that most top teams throughout that period had at least three of there top five point getters under 26.

ROR was an elite center when we won the cup….elite. People who do not understand hockey only look at goals and assists, but when your center can absolutely shut down the other teams top line, that is elite. The Boston top line could not get anything going against our top line. There is a reason Florida has overwhelmed teams other top lines and that is Barkov. McDavid was completely neutralized, similarly to what ROR did to other teams top lines. To win the cup you need an elite defensive center.

Barkov is head and shoulders better than ROR and always has been. One player doesn’t shut down a McDavid. It’s a team strategy and effort.

You mentioned ROR against the Bruins. He caught fire there. But had he not been carried there, it’s not even a convo. He was horrible the first 2 series and ok in the 3rd

[seattleblue]

Thank you for this exercise. Thomas is 26 in a couple weeks. Four more seasons in his 20s. Dvorsky turned 20 last weekend. Obviously he will need most if not all of that 4 years to ramp up to being a Stanley Cup caliber 2C. This was why I coveted Desnoyers when the Blues were in range and he was still being mock drafted at 7 or 8. I've been consistently insistent that the top 4 is Schaefer Misa Desnoyers and Frondell, sometimes swapping Desnoyers and Frondell.

The precise reason I ranked Desnoyers and Frondell ahead of Hagens is that the final run of prospect rankings always occurs in the heads of men who are also watching the final two rounds of the Cup playoffs and they start thinking more about application of the player to that specific situation. When that occurs, Desnoyers goes up and Hagens goes down. Hagens isn't this caliber of center, he is too small to defend. Desnoyers is a player who will be playing in those final games.

How much better is Schaefer than Misa? If Schaefer was a right shot I wouldn't even ask the question.
The reason I ask is because the Islanders desperately need a 1C
Their current 1C (Horvat) is really a 2C who is 30 years old and has 6 years left at 8.5
Their current 2C (Pageau) is really a 3C who is pushing 33 and might get traded so there is a huge need for a top center.
Everything I've read is that at best Ritchie will be a 2C

There are rumors that Utah might trade pick #4 for immediate help.
Dobson's name has been brought up which would allow NY to draft a center at #4 and still draft Schaefer at #1
Of course the hometown kid (Hagens) would be the popular pick there.
Dobson to the Mammoth for #4 and Durzi?
I believe Armstrong should keep the pick and draft one of the centers unless he is certain that Hayton has turned the corner and will be his 2C for years to come.

When you watch Misa you are watching a future PPG center in the NHL. He's got so much going on. But I would draft Schaefer first. With the same thought process you are doing, an anchor #1 dman can last even longer than the center. You need both. I guess my three most painful Blues losses were chronologically Stevens, Pronger and Petro because they were clearly Cup caliber anchors and they are so hard to acquire. Maybe having traded for ROR and Schenn biases me toward "it's even harder to draft elite defense." But they are both very difficult.

(If it were Schaefer vs. McKenna, that is McKenna, no brainer. McKenna is very special)

[Cahokanut]

R0R was only a first line center. Because of the team he played on.

I'd bet if you looked further you'd notice that most top teams throughout that period had at least three of there top five point getters under 26.

ROR was an elite center when we won the cup….elite. People who do not understand hockey only look at goals and assists, but when your center can absolutely shut down the other teams top line, that is elite. The Boston top line could not get anything going against our top line. There is a reason Florida has overwhelmed teams other top lines and that is Barkov. McDavid was completely neutralized, similarly to what ROR did to other teams top lines. To win the cup you need an elite defensive center.

Give me a break dude.
This is troll posting, if ever.
He was never elite and only a 1c on the St. Louis Blues

[moose-and-squirrel]

sorry you never got a chance to watch him play while he was here

[Aesa]

R0R was only a first line center. Because of the team he played on.

I'd bet if you looked further you'd notice that most top teams throughout that period had at least three of there top five point getters under 26.

ROR was an elite center when we won the cup….elite. People who do not understand hockey only look at goals and assists, but when your center can absolutely shut down the other teams top line, that is elite. The Boston top line could not get anything going against our top line. There is a reason Florida has overwhelmed teams other top lines and that is Barkov. McDavid was completely neutralized, similarly to what ROR did to other teams top lines. To win the cup you need an elite defensive center.

Give me a break dude.
This is troll posting, if ever.
He was never elite and only a 1c on the St. Louis Blues

One that was good enough to win the Selke and bring the Cup to St. Louis.

[seattleblue]

Yeah, not only is it not a troll posting, he's right. Bergeron and ROR were elite two-way centers in the NHL. That is why they hard matched ROR against the MacKinnon Makar unit in 2022 and expected ROR to succeed in that role and he did. They hard matched ROR against Boston's "Perfection Line" that also had Marchand on it and he succeeded. That is elite hockey. Hockey is more than points. Anyone who appreciates #27 knows that for example.

[TAFKAP]

R0R was only a first line center. Because of the team he played on.

I'd bet if you looked further you'd notice that most top teams throughout that period had at least three of there top five point getters under 26.

ROR was an elite center when we won the cup….elite. People who do not understand hockey only look at goals and assists, but when your center can absolutely shut down the other teams top line, that is elite. The Boston top line could not get anything going against our top line. There is a reason Florida has overwhelmed teams other top lines and that is Barkov. McDavid was completely neutralized, similarly to what ROR did to other teams top lines. To win the cup you need an elite defensive center.

Give me a break dude.
This is troll posting, if ever.
He was never elite and only a 1c on the St. Louis Blues

Who gives a [shirt]?? Really?!? He won the Stanley Cup and the Conn Smythe.

They call it the asylum for a reason. Before he got here, the Blues Talk experts labeled him "Paul Stastny 2.0". He wins a Cup, Conn Smythe, and becomes Captain, he's loved. Nobody says [shirt] until he leaves. Now he's back to being Paul. Labels mean nothing, trophies mean everything. Results matter.

[STL fan in MN]

Thank you for this exercise. Thomas is 26 in a couple weeks. Four more seasons in his 20s. Dvorsky turned 20 last weekend. Obviously he will need most if not all of that 4 years to ramp up to being a Stanley Cup caliber 2C. This was why I coveted Desnoyers when the Blues were in range and he was still being mock drafted at 7 or 8. I've been consistently insistent that the top 4 is Schaefer Misa Desnoyers and Frondell, sometimes swapping Desnoyers and Frondell.

The precise reason I ranked Desnoyers and Frondell ahead of Hagens is that the final run of prospect rankings always occurs in the heads of men who are also watching the final two rounds of the Cup playoffs and they start thinking more about application of the player to that specific situation. When that occurs, Desnoyers goes up and Hagens goes down. Hagens isn't this caliber of center, he is too small to defend. Desnoyers is a player who will be playing in those final games.

How much better is Schaefer than Misa? If Schaefer was a right shot I wouldn't even ask the question.
The reason I ask is because the Islanders desperately need a 1C
Their current 1C (Horvat) is really a 2C who is 30 years old and has 6 years left at 8.5
Their current 2C (Pageau) is really a 3C who is pushing 33 and might get traded so there is a huge need for a top center.
Everything I've read is that at best Ritchie will be a 2C

There are rumors that Utah might trade pick #4 for immediate help.
Dobson's name has been brought up which would allow NY to draft a center at #4 and still draft Schaefer at #1
Of course the hometown kid (Hagens) would be the popular pick there.
Dobson to the Mammoth for #4 and Durzi?
I believe Armstrong should keep the pick and draft one of the centers unless he is certain that Hayton has turned the corner and will be his 2C for years to come.

I’d take Schaefer 1st but there’s absolutely a case for Misa go 1st overall and for him to end up the best player in this draft.

IMO, 17 yr old forwards are safer projections than 17 yr old d-men (and way way safer projections than 17 yr old goalies). So Misa probably has a bit higher odds of being elite IMO. But Schaefer was that good this season…when he played. The other risk with Schaefer is that he was injured in December and didn’t play another game after that. So we didn’t get to see how he fared in the OHL playoffs for example. Adds to the uncertainty risk of taking a D 1st overall.

In the end, I see Schaefer as a likely #1, the type that should be among the top 10 d-men in the game for the bulk of his career. And I see Misa being a pretty safe bet to be a top #1 center in the mold of someone like Eichel, Hughes etc. These 2 players are in a tier of their own IMO.