Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑18 Jun 2025 07:14 am
To be clear, I am specifically talking about a pitch that would be a strike w/o the framing. The catchers should stick these pitches to show the ump that it is a strike. When they take a pitch that is already a strike and try to frame it to the middle of the plate, I think it makes the umpires believe they may be getting deceived, and thus, sometimes they don't call a strike.
I didn’t get a chance to watch the game, but I’ll take your word it looked ridiculous.
Here’s a theory: maybe all the glove movement on obvious strikes makes the glove movement on borderline strikes look less egregious.
Thanks, JDW! You nailed it. It's not how far you move the glove to move the ball into the strike zone It's how you catch the ball in the mitt, to make it appear like a strike when you catch it. THAT is the true art of framing, and what YADI excelled in. Not moving your glove all over. He also was much better at calling a game and getting our pitchers out of certain tough situations ala Helsley in 1 run save opportunities. Personally, I can't wait for the fine tuning of the automated strike zone. And using it on every single pitch. Not just a challenge system.
Pages did it again in the top of the 2nd. Pallante through a clear bottom of the zone strike that Pages pulled up to the middle. Umpire called it a ball.
Just watch how many times Pages moves a pitch that is already a strike to the middle and the umpire calls it a ball.
It happens more than you realize.
If it’s already a strike, stick it. Leave it alone!
The best umpires have already made up their minds before the catcher moves the glove. The only way to make the umpire question the call is to catch the ball in such a way that the glove is over the corner even as the catch is made off the plate, i.e., watch Molina frame a pitch using the glove not the motion.
"Framing" a pitch is all about positioning.
"Pulling" a pitch is all about trying to nudge it into the strike zone by moving the glove - and it does not fool any umpires.
It does, however, result in passed balls which bounce off the glove when a catcher moves his glove toward the zone a split second too early.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑18 Jun 2025 10:12 am
If I see one more catcher lifting a pitch that's 12 inches off the ground up a foot w/their glove I'm going to throw something at the TV!
I don't mind them doing it, but I mind umps being fooled by it.
Electronic balls and strikes can't get here soon enough.
DwaininAztec wrote: ↑20 Jun 2025 22:38 pm
The best umpires have already made up their minds before the catcher moves the glove. The only way to make the umpire question the call is to catch the ball in such a way that the glove is over the corner even as the catch is made off the plate, i.e., watch Molina frame a pitch using the glove not the motion.
Some lower level umps make up their mind too early, sometimes anticipating where the ball ends up and get fooled with late movement, but the MLB ones have mostly learned/been taught to wait longer. Ideally you want them to react to where the ball ends up, and leave any thinking out of it, but you often see late calls where they're flipping coins inside their head. They're human, and can also get emotional once in a while influencing their calls.
That's why as a C you're part psychologist, trying to play buddy buddy with them to a degree, lol.
As long as the electronic system has the flaws mostly worked out, I'm all for it, although we do lose another part of the game as the manager umpire angst moments of days gone by could be classic entertainment ................. think Zimmer.
DwaininAztec wrote: ↑20 Jun 2025 22:38 pm
The best umpires have already made up their minds before the catcher moves the glove. The only way to make the umpire question the call is to catch the ball in such a way that the glove is over the corner even as the catch is made off the plate, i.e., watch Molina frame a pitch using the glove not the motion.
Some lower level umps make up their mind too early, sometimes anticipating where the ball ends up and get fooled with late movement, but the MLB ones have mostly learned/been taught to wait longer. Ideally you want them to react to where the ball ends up, and leave any thinking out of it, but you often see late calls where they're flipping coins inside their head. They're human, and can also get emotional once in a while influencing their calls.
That's why as a C you're part psychologist, trying to play buddy buddy with them to a degree, lol.
As long as the electronic system has the flaws mostly worked out, I'm all for it, although we do lose another part of the game as the manager umpire angst moments of days gone by could be classic entertainment ................. think Zimmer.
I am not talking about calling the pitch early, just calling the pitch as it enters the strike zone which is before the catcher receives the ball or moves the glove.
DwaininAztec wrote: ↑20 Jun 2025 22:38 pm
The best umpires have already made up their minds before the catcher moves the glove. The only way to make the umpire question the call is to catch the ball in such a way that the glove is over the corner even as the catch is made off the plate, i.e., watch Molina frame a pitch using the glove not the motion.
Some lower level umps make up their mind too early, sometimes anticipating where the ball ends up and get fooled with late movement, but the MLB ones have mostly learned/been taught to wait longer. Ideally you want them to react to where the ball ends up, and leave any thinking out of it, but you often see late calls where they're flipping coins inside their head. They're human, and can also get emotional once in a while influencing their calls.
That's why as a C you're part psychologist, trying to play buddy buddy with them to a degree, lol.
As long as the electronic system has the flaws mostly worked out, I'm all for it, although we do lose another part of the game as the manager umpire angst moments of days gone by could be classic entertainment ................. think Zimmer.
I am not talking about calling the pitch early, just calling the pitch as it enters the strike zone which is before the catcher receives the ball or moves the glove.
At the MLB level, I'd hope most the umps usually react to what they see when it crosses the plate, but if that was always the case "framing" wouldn't even be an issue we'd be talking about.
With the higher velo and spin rates now home plate umping isn't easy. Hoping the new technology apparently coming helps, but my take on reviewing plays in the regular season started with the same optimism, and now, not so much.
That said, sounds like the system is working pretty well as they keep refining it at the lower levels.
