Are the wheels falling off?

[sikeston bulldog2]

Use whichever cliche one prefers...the wheels have fallen off...the teams is back down to earth.

I predicted 78 wins and the Cards may be marginally better than that. But it's a slim margin at best.

Keep playing the kids!

They took 2 out of 3 from the Dodgers and then got steamrolled by a team that has been on fire. Toronto is 13-3 in their last 16 games.

The 7-2 lead loss against KC was killer. Set a bad tone for the home stand.

[rockondlouie]

No

The team still shows great heart and fight, even last nights loss saw them come back from being down 5-1 to tie the game.

No way this team was going to keep up the torrid pace they were on.

Even playing .500 ball the rest of the way (50-50) they'll still win 84 games, not great but one up on last season and nowhere near the disaster predicted by the national media morons.

Can one overcome a lack of talent with "great heart and fight?"

Sometimes, but you're not winning a WS on it.

Former Blues coach Brian Sutter use to say, "Hard work is a skill"!

[Ronnie Dobbs]

It's still a fun team to watch. And I'm still hopeful that we're seeing some things starting to pay off with Walker and Gorman. And it's fun to see Liberatore, Winn, Herrera, and even Scott when he's struggling like his is continue to develop.

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

[3dender]

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

Yup they've had extremely good health luck so far this year, which is one of the things I was noticing weeks ago when everyone was looking to purchase their WS tickets. We're getting our first glimpse of what typical health luck would look like now with both Walker and Donovan out. And still haven't had a starter go down yet...

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

This is exactly what will happen and you already know it deep in your soul.

[Futuregm2]

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

Yup they've had extremely good health luck so far this year, which is one of the things I was noticing weeks ago when everyone was looking to purchase their WS tickets. We're getting our first glimpse of what typical health luck would look like now with both Walker and Donovan out. And still haven't had a starter go down yet...

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

This is exactly what will happen and you already know it deep in your soul.

We lost Herrera (for a month), Winn, and Gorman early to IL trips. Or does everyone forget that? It’s not like they’ve been perfectly healthy. I would say their health issues have been “normal” just not “terribly bad”. Which is what teams SHOULD expect. You shouldn’t expect to be perfectly healthy and you shouldn’t expect to have everyone get hurt. So in a lot of ways I don’t see it as good luck or bad luck.

[3dender]

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

Yup they've had extremely good health luck so far this year, which is one of the things I was noticing weeks ago when everyone was looking to purchase their WS tickets. We're getting our first glimpse of what typical health luck would look like now with both Walker and Donovan out. And still haven't had a starter go down yet...

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

This is exactly what will happen and you already know it deep in your soul.

We lost Herrera (for a month), Winn, and Gorman early to IL trips. Or does everyone forget that? It’s not like they’ve been perfectly healthy. I would say their health issues have been “normal” just not “terribly bad”. Which is what teams SHOULD expect. You shouldn’t expect to be perfectly healthy and you shouldn’t expect to have everyone get hurt. So in a lot of ways I don’t see it as good luck or bad luck.

Gorman wasn't producing when he went down, and Winn's absence was a blip where Saggese performed pretty well in his absence. Herrera going down did cost us some games with the offense going pretty cold at the time.

But a huge factor of early season success was the pitching being healthy and outperforming projections. How many other teams have had no injuries yet to their starting rotation (let alone the entire pitching staff)? Cardinals are one of those few teams.

[Futuregm2]

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

Yup they've had extremely good health luck so far this year, which is one of the things I was noticing weeks ago when everyone was looking to purchase their WS tickets. We're getting our first glimpse of what typical health luck would look like now with both Walker and Donovan out. And still haven't had a starter go down yet...

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

This is exactly what will happen and you already know it deep in your soul.

We lost Herrera (for a month), Winn, and Gorman early to IL trips. Or does everyone forget that? It’s not like they’ve been perfectly healthy. I would say their health issues have been “normal” just not “terribly bad”. Which is what teams SHOULD expect. You shouldn’t expect to be perfectly healthy and you shouldn’t expect to have everyone get hurt. So in a lot of ways I don’t see it as good luck or bad luck.

Gorman wasn't producing when he went down, and Winn's absence was a blip where Saggese performed pretty well in his absence. Herrera going down did cost us some games with the offense going pretty cold at the time.

But a huge factor of early season success was the pitching being healthy and outperforming projections. How many other teams have had no injuries yet to their starting rotation (let alone the entire pitching staff)? Cardinals are one of those few teams.

Gorman’s injury was 5 games into the season and he went 4 for 8 in the 2 games he appeared in before the injury, so it’s wrong to say he wasn’t producing. It’s still an impactful loss when you lose a player like Winn. You’re just moving the goalposts here to make it seem like we haven’t had any injuries. Not every injury on the other teams ends up hurting them, either. But they’re still injuries.

I think overall outside of Libby, the rest of the rotation hasn’t been huge outperformers though. And outside of Fedde right now everybody else is underperforming their FIPs or in line (Pallante).

Gray 3.35 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 3.84 ERA/3.12 FIP 2024
Fedde 3.54 ERA/4.32 FIP —- 3.30 ERA/3.86 FIP 2024
Libby 3.93 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 4.40 ERA/4.11 FIP 2024
Mikolas 4.48 ERA/3.77 FIP —- 5.35 ERA/4.24 FIP 2024
Pallante 4.75 ERA/4.76 FIP —-3.78 ERA/3.71 FIP 2024

This team isn’t getting lucky, they’re just performing to their abilities and doing what they need to do. But they’re struggling in June a bit because the starting pitching (5.67 ERA in June) hasn’t been good. Hopefully they right the ship starting tonight.

[3dender]

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

Yup they've had extremely good health luck so far this year, which is one of the things I was noticing weeks ago when everyone was looking to purchase their WS tickets. We're getting our first glimpse of what typical health luck would look like now with both Walker and Donovan out. And still haven't had a starter go down yet...

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

This is exactly what will happen and you already know it deep in your soul.

We lost Herrera (for a month), Winn, and Gorman early to IL trips. Or does everyone forget that? It’s not like they’ve been perfectly healthy. I would say their health issues have been “normal” just not “terribly bad”. Which is what teams SHOULD expect. You shouldn’t expect to be perfectly healthy and you shouldn’t expect to have everyone get hurt. So in a lot of ways I don’t see it as good luck or bad luck.

Gorman wasn't producing when he went down, and Winn's absence was a blip where Saggese performed pretty well in his absence. Herrera going down did cost us some games with the offense going pretty cold at the time.

But a huge factor of early season success was the pitching being healthy and outperforming projections. How many other teams have had no injuries yet to their starting rotation (let alone the entire pitching staff)? Cardinals are one of those few teams.

Gorman’s injury was 5 games into the season and he went 4 for 8 in the 2 games he appeared in before the injury, so it’s wrong to say he wasn’t producing. It’s still an impactful loss when you lose a player like Winn. You’re just moving the goalposts here to make it seem like we haven’t had any injuries. Not every injury on the other teams ends up hurting them, either. But they’re still injuries.

I think overall outside of Libby, the rest of the rotation hasn’t been huge outperformers though. And outside of Fedde right now everybody else is underperforming their FIPs or in line (Pallante).

Gray 3.35 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 3.84 ERA/3.12 FIP 2024
Fedde 3.54 ERA/4.32 FIP —- 3.30 ERA/3.86 FIP 2024
Libby 3.93 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 4.40 ERA/4.11 FIP 2024
Mikolas 4.48 ERA/3.77 FIP —- 5.35 ERA/4.24 FIP 2024
Pallante 4.75 ERA/4.76 FIP —-3.78 ERA/3.71 FIP 2024

This team isn’t getting lucky, they’re just performing to their abilities and doing what they need to do. But they’re struggling in June a bit because the starting pitching (5.67 ERA in June) hasn’t been good. Hopefully they right the ship starting tonight.

You can call it moving the goalposts if you want... I look at it as clarifying my assertion that the extremely good luck I had in mind was pitching-related, which was also outperforming projections during May when they were racking up series wins. Please excuse me for not articulating that clearly enough in my first post.

The pitching numbers taken in mid-June after the pitching has come back to earth for a couple weeks (and the winning momentum has stopped) may not look as "overperforming" as it was near the end of May.

[Futuregm2]

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

Yup they've had extremely good health luck so far this year, which is one of the things I was noticing weeks ago when everyone was looking to purchase their WS tickets. We're getting our first glimpse of what typical health luck would look like now with both Walker and Donovan out. And still haven't had a starter go down yet...

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

This is exactly what will happen and you already know it deep in your soul.

We lost Herrera (for a month), Winn, and Gorman early to IL trips. Or does everyone forget that? It’s not like they’ve been perfectly healthy. I would say their health issues have been “normal” just not “terribly bad”. Which is what teams SHOULD expect. You shouldn’t expect to be perfectly healthy and you shouldn’t expect to have everyone get hurt. So in a lot of ways I don’t see it as good luck or bad luck.

Gorman wasn't producing when he went down, and Winn's absence was a blip where Saggese performed pretty well in his absence. Herrera going down did cost us some games with the offense going pretty cold at the time.

But a huge factor of early season success was the pitching being healthy and outperforming projections. How many other teams have had no injuries yet to their starting rotation (let alone the entire pitching staff)? Cardinals are one of those few teams.

Gorman’s injury was 5 games into the season and he went 4 for 8 in the 2 games he appeared in before the injury, so it’s wrong to say he wasn’t producing. It’s still an impactful loss when you lose a player like Winn. You’re just moving the goalposts here to make it seem like we haven’t had any injuries. Not every injury on the other teams ends up hurting them, either. But they’re still injuries.

I think overall outside of Libby, the rest of the rotation hasn’t been huge outperformers though. And outside of Fedde right now everybody else is underperforming their FIPs or in line (Pallante).

Gray 3.35 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 3.84 ERA/3.12 FIP 2024
Fedde 3.54 ERA/4.32 FIP —- 3.30 ERA/3.86 FIP 2024
Libby 3.93 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 4.40 ERA/4.11 FIP 2024
Mikolas 4.48 ERA/3.77 FIP —- 5.35 ERA/4.24 FIP 2024
Pallante 4.75 ERA/4.76 FIP —-3.78 ERA/3.71 FIP 2024

This team isn’t getting lucky, they’re just performing to their abilities and doing what they need to do. But they’re struggling in June a bit because the starting pitching (5.67 ERA in June) hasn’t been good. Hopefully they right the ship starting tonight.

You can call it moving the goalposts if you want... I look at it as clarifying my assertion that the extremely good luck I had in mind was pitching-related, which was also outperforming projections during May when they were racking up series wins. Please excuse me for not articulating that clearly enough in my first post.

The pitching numbers taken in mid-June after the pitching has come back to earth for a couple weeks (and the winning momentum has stopped) may not look as "overperforming" as it was near the end of May.

Well at the end of May, Gray was a bit better than a year ago, Mikolas was better (although he was still worse in ERA than his FIP)/Pallante and Fedde worse, and Libby has been the major surprise (although his last 3 starts have certainly kicked him in the butt a bit). I think overall it isn’t as much of an overperforming as some might think. And it’s certainly looking less so after the start of June.

[Bob Kunush]

I am fine overall with the hitting. I am concerned about the pitching only as it pertains to winning here in the short run. I always thought it would be a weak link in 2025. They just dont miss enough bats in either the starting rotation or bullpen. Those ground balls thst were turning into double plays earlier are starting to find holes. That's just the way things go. If you hit enough balls hard eventually some are going to be hits. If you dont hit the ball and swing and miss a lot that is always going to be an out.

I am happy to be getting a long look at Libatore and Pallante. Libatore I feel good about for the long run, Pallante not so much. He just cant miss bats. I was a big fan of his bit not not so sure now. But that's what this year is mostly for to figure some of those things out. The next few weeks will be a test for this pitching staff, which mostly is sputtering right now. Unreliable pitching will bring down any offense.

I think the next two weeks ate going to define the direction pretty well.

[hugeCardfan]

Has this year been a disappointment? I don't think so. We are seeing some players impress. Herrera and Walker. Follow thru from Winn. Positive starting from Libby albeit, not yet consistent. 2 catchers, Pages and Pozo who don't embarrass. McGreevy will be ready next year.... Maybe Mathews too. Contreras has settled at 1B and is a real positive on both sides.

We need to see how they respond with Milwaukee to the recent sweep vs Toronto... I am certainly not discouraged. The minor league system is evolving well.

[renostl]

But they don't have a lot of depth to begin with. And it was always going to be about the pitching. We've had good luck with pitchers staying healthy so far, even if some of them have regressed a bit. If one of them gets hurt, we're in serious trouble.

Yup they've had extremely good health luck so far this year, which is one of the things I was noticing weeks ago when everyone was looking to purchase their WS tickets. We're getting our first glimpse of what typical health luck would look like now with both Walker and Donovan out. And still haven't had a starter go down yet...

I'm kind of hoping some of this gets sorted out one way or another by the trade deadline. I'd hate to be middle of the road again and stay that way just to fight for the last wild card spot. I also don't want to trade a bunch of guys if we're in serious contention for the division.

This is exactly what will happen and you already know it deep in your soul.

We lost Herrera (for a month), Winn, and Gorman early to IL trips. Or does everyone forget that? It’s not like they’ve been perfectly healthy. I would say their health issues have been “normal” just not “terribly bad”. Which is what teams SHOULD expect. You shouldn’t expect to be perfectly healthy and you shouldn’t expect to have everyone get hurt. So in a lot of ways I don’t see it as good luck or bad luck.

Gorman wasn't producing when he went down, and Winn's absence was a blip where Saggese performed pretty well in his absence. Herrera going down did cost us some games with the offense going pretty cold at the time.

But a huge factor of early season success was the pitching being healthy and outperforming projections. How many other teams have had no injuries yet to their starting rotation (let alone the entire pitching staff)? Cardinals are one of those few teams.

Gorman’s injury was 5 games into the season and he went 4 for 8 in the 2 games he appeared in before the injury, so it’s wrong to say he wasn’t producing. It’s still an impactful loss when you lose a player like Winn. You’re just moving the goalposts here to make it seem like we haven’t had any injuries. Not every injury on the other teams ends up hurting them, either. But they’re still injuries.

I think overall outside of Libby, the rest of the rotation hasn’t been huge outperformers though. And outside of Fedde right now everybody else is underperforming their FIPs or in line (Pallante).

Gray 3.35 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 3.84 ERA/3.12 FIP 2024
Fedde 3.54 ERA/4.32 FIP —- 3.30 ERA/3.86 FIP 2024
Libby 3.93 ERA/3.12 FIP —- 4.40 ERA/4.11 FIP 2024
Mikolas 4.48 ERA/3.77 FIP —- 5.35 ERA/4.24 FIP 2024
Pallante 4.75 ERA/4.76 FIP —-3.78 ERA/3.71 FIP 2024

This team isn’t getting lucky, they’re just performing to their abilities and doing what they need to do. But they’re struggling in June a bit because the starting pitching (5.67 ERA in June) hasn’t been good. Hopefully they right the ship starting tonight.

You can call it moving the goalposts if you want... I look at it as clarifying my assertion that the extremely good luck I had in mind was pitching-related, which was also outperforming projections during May when they were racking up series wins. Please excuse me for not articulating that clearly enough in my first post.

The pitching numbers taken in mid-June after the pitching has come back to earth for a couple weeks (and the winning momentum has stopped) may not look as "overperforming" as it was near the end of May.

Well at the end of May, Gray was a bit better than a year ago, Mikolas was better (although he was still worse in ERA than his FIP)/Pallante and Fedde worse, and Libby has been the major surprise (although his last 3 starts have certainly kicked him in the butt a bit). I think overall it isn’t as much of an overperforming as some might think. And it’s certainly looking less so after the start of June.

This thread may not exist with 3 saves happening.

The Cards need to have clean games. They didn't have that, and it didn't necessarily show up in the box score.
Not turning double plays, not making an makable catch or 2, pass balls, and becoming victimized by a lot of weak hits that
teams on a roll get.

Balances out some of when they were on a roll.

[ilcubuffs]

Watching Vellade, Mikolas, Baez, Nutzbar, Gorman, O'Brien, Roycrapt, et al it does not seem the wheels are falling off the bus but rather the Titanic with flat tires.

60 games, just this season, and you cannot tell the aforementioned are NOT MLB quality players? Yet, Saggese, Kaperniak, McGreevy, Crooks, etc continue to play well in Memphis. When does the "play the youngsters - WITH TALENT - begin?

[DickyBennett]

Yes 5 consecutive losses being outscored 33-18 spells wheels have come off

All facets of team have [shirt] down

[hmoss859]

Yeah things are about to get ugly

[stlbirdlover]

Pitching sucked again and the offense had 3 hits! Some guy they never faced shut them down again!