Will Waino be the last to 200 wins?

[JDW]

I think there will be others given time, but possibly becomes as rare as ................. 600 career HR's? 220 hits in a season? 100 SB seasons? IDK.

You saved me a thread. Great find!!

Why- why do we not have a 700 Homerun guy, a 72 Homerun guy, 150 rbi guy, 100 stolen base guy, just one record breaker. Why.

With so much advanced medical and analytical data surely we have built the perfect beast. Where is he.

He's facing off against a neverending, interchangeable parade of other perfect beasts with the nastiest velo and movement in the history of the sport... also crafted by the same advanced medical and analytical data.

Great response. Now what must baseball do to assist the offense.

I used to think moving the pitching mound back would help, but now with Judge, Ohtani, hitting labs, and several hitters over .300 BA this year the hitters have seemingly somewhat caught up with the pitching advances in velo and spin rates. Heck, a couple are threatening the .400 BA mark so far this year, but yes, it's still early and I'd be shocked to see anyone stay close to that for the entire season.

[3dender]

I think there will be others given time, but possibly becomes as rare as ................. 600 career HR's? 220 hits in a season? 100 SB seasons? IDK.

You saved me a thread. Great find!!

Why- why do we not have a 700 Homerun guy, a 72 Homerun guy, 150 rbi guy, 100 stolen base guy, just one record breaker. Why.

With so much advanced medical and analytical data surely we have built the perfect beast. Where is he.

He's facing off against a neverending, interchangeable parade of other perfect beasts with the nastiest velo and movement in the history of the sport... also crafted by the same advanced medical and analytical data.

Great response. Now what must baseball do to assist the offense.

I used to think moving the pitching mound back would help, but now with Judge, Ohtani, hitting labs, and several hitters over .300 BA this year the hitters have seemingly somewhat caught up with the pitching advances in velo and spin rates. Heck, a couple are threatening the .400 BA mark so far this year, but yes, it's still early and I'd be shocked to see anyone stay close to that for the entire season.

I don't see anything changing it. Teams are actually motivated to let it happen since catastrophic injuries to maxed out pitchers will actually end up suppressing salaries. I think we're starting to see that now with short term contracts for guys like Snell and deGrom. Corbin Burnes is a notable recent exception and we see how that worked out.

[imadangman]

Question for CT folks...Is it possible, or even likely, that our Adam Wainwright is going to be the last pitcher to win 200 games in a career?

Gerrit Cole sits at 153, but he's 34 and hasn't pitched this season. Next is Sale at 141...but he's 36 and has only won 3 games this season.

Not exactly a timely thread, then again, the weather is awful and it's not a thread about Burly.

So what do you think? And...IF Waino is the last to 200, would that put him in the HOF someday?

Wainwright had nowhere near a HOF worthy career.
That aside, you pose a highly interesting question.
Here's the problem.
In today's game, the very worst teams are going to be able to draft the very best prospects (and pitching will of course be the priority) - thereby wasting several good seasons of an elite young pitcher.
See: Skenes, Paul.
Will another pitcher win 200?
Yes, of course.
But, it will require a high quality team which wins 90+ games per year to do one of three things.
Get very lucky in the draft.
Or make an overwhelming trade offer to acquire an elite young starter in the first 1-2 years of his career - and then immediately extend him for 10 years.
Or, make an overwhelming trade offer to acquire an elite young starter, who is a consensus #1 MLB prospect on the verge on MLB - and then extend him 10 years nearly immediately when he reaches the show.
These scenarios would permit a young ace to have a shot at around 100 wins by age 30 - and then begin the march to 200.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Maybe not. But plenty of pitchers in the HOF who didn't have a HOF career. One example...

Waino has a higher fWAR than Jack Morris. A better era & era+. A higher winning percentage. A lower WHIP, lower BB per 9, and higher K per 9. Waino won two GG and a Silver Slugger. While neither won a Cy Young, Waino did finish 2nd twice and 3rd twice. And Waino's K of Beltran is an iconic moment.

Now no, I don't feel he had a HOF career either. But...if he does get in someday, I would not be overly shocked. If Harold Baines is in, Waino is also a possibility.

I think it's inaccurate to say he has "nowhere near" a HOF career. If anything, having the designation of being the "last" to get to 200 wins might help his case if there is one. Maybe he represents a generation of pitchers. He's very popular in the game. People think of him alongside Scherzers and Verlanders of the world. Would have helped if he won one of those Cy Young awards.

Agree. I don't think he really belongs in the HOF, but I definitely think there's a decent chance he gets lucky and benefits from the paradigm shift and change in standards of modern pitching.

If guys like Sale and deGrom start getting in (and they will bc the alternative is literally no more SPs ever in the HOF), then I think it'll be hard for both writers and veterans to keep out Waino.

Lester is a guy with 200 wins on the dot, and I bet he gets in. I'd almost put the chances of Waino getting in at like 55%. It just wouldn't surprise me at all if over the course of 10 years on the ballet he found his way in.

[Strummer Jones]

I don't think he'll be the last, but they're certainly going to be really rare. As if they weren't already in the grand scheme. And I think this number does eventually get Wainwright in the hall of fame. Who knows? There might be some lean years and he sneaks in on a weak ballot. I don't have a crystal ball.

But yeah, until the pendulum swings in the other direction, 200 wins is the new 300. Between injuries from trying to throw every pitch through a brick wall and the "five-and-dive" starting pitching way of doing things now, it's going to be a long time before we see another. Maybe Cole and Sale. But even those guys aren't a slam dunk by any means.

[The Nard]

I and other long-term students of the game have recognized cycles in the game. It’s quite possible that this nonsense about a 5-inning limit or 80 pitches and you’re through, will pass on. This is especially true when you are forced to move your bullpen early, which are admittedly lesser arms (except for a good closer). If you’re using 4 or 5 bp arms in game after game, at least one of them will perform badly, and let in the tying runs , thus denying even good starters a chance for a win

Question: do the teams pay their starters more than relievers? Why is that? They expect 100-150 innings a year, or twice as much work as even an effective reliever. So - is the ratio between a starters pay and an effective reliever, 2to 1?

I’m of that school that believes starters should pitch in a game as long as they’re effective. That’s what the manager and pitching coach should focus on, not 5 innings and you’re out.

In the very near future, I predict that certain teams will start stretching out their starters more and more, and good ones will start being credited with more than 15wins in a season , once again. If they show success , other teams will start copying them, and the reemergence of 200-game winning pitchers will occur once again

[illiniriles]

Outstanding reply by imadangman. He really hit the nail on the head about Jon Lester. Ended with 200 wins on the button. I think he won a couple of WS titles. Was the show piece and Bell Cow on the Cub curse breakers. Went from a one dimensional AL style pitcher only to a complete ball player that could win games taking advantage of the nuances of the game. I think he went from something like 0 for or 1 for 60 or something to a PDG hitting pitcher that could actually get a bunt down. I believe he's a lock for the HOF. The main difference between Lester and Waino is that Lester was just flat out surly. Waino, on the other hand, terrific guy.

[Eyelids64]

Fact is how many wins did waino lose to ineffective BP?

[rockondlouie]

I don't see J. Lester ever making the Hall of Fame

3.66 career ERA
1.28 WHiP

No major individual awards

Only 5 all-star appearances

Does have the WS rings

200 wins accumulated over a 16 year career or 12 wins a season

But you can see by the JAWS Hall of Fame Stats he's not even close:

JAWS
J. Lester (153rd):
43.4 career WAR | 34.1 7yr-peak WAR | 38.8 JAWS | 38.8 S-JAWS | 3.3 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

[ecleme22]

I don't see J. Lester ever making the Hall of Fame

3.66 career ERA
1.28 WHiP

No major individual awards

Only 5 all-star appearances

Does have the WS rings

200 wins accumulated over a 16 year career or 12 wins a season

But you can see by the JAWS Hall of Fame Stats he's not even close:

JAWS
J. Lester (153rd):
43.4 career WAR | 34.1 7yr-peak WAR | 38.8 JAWS | 38.8 S-JAWS | 3.3 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Yep. Lester is in no way HOF worthy

[RamFan08NY]

doubtful 200 puts Waino in the HOF
JMO

Waino isn't a Hall of Famer, I'm w/you.

And you can never say "never" but I wouldn't put any money on there being another 200 game winner.

Verlander-Max-Kershaw could be the last.

Any pitcher in today's game who is towards the end of the career who is worthy? Do you think Scherzer is? He and AW have very similar career stats.

I think AW is HOF worthy. Comparing him to the pitchers of his era, he rates right up there with the best.

Lack of a Cy award? That shouldn't be held against him. He was robbed of one, and lost one to a pitcher who had a career year.

If you're comparing players of today vs players of 50-75 years ago, then no player playing today is deserving.

Nobody is going to have a lifetime avg of .350, and nobody is going to throw 15-20 complete games per year (nor in their career). It's a great topic gor discussion.

[Swuhgen]

Of course not.

[illiniriles]

Swuhgen. Is that like, from "Deadwood"?
I like it.

[illiniriles]

Eyelids64 also posted a terrific reply. I remember Waino missing out on more than just a few wins because his BP let him down. Don't remember him even once whining or throwing a teammate under the bus. And when he just didn't have it he was front and center taking tough questions. Sometimes saying "I sucked". Plus, he did a lot for the StL and Missouri community. I don't think anyone could deny that he deserves entry to the Hall of Classy Guys.

[rockondlouie]

doubtful 200 puts Waino in the HOF
JMO

Waino isn't a Hall of Famer, I'm w/you.

And you can never say "never" but I wouldn't put any money on there being another 200 game winner.

Verlander-Max-Kershaw could be the last.

Any pitcher in today's game who is towards the end of the career who is worthy? Do you think Scherzer is? He and AW have very similar career stats.

I think AW is HOF worthy. Comparing him to the pitchers of his era, he rates right up there with the best.

Lack of a Cy award? That shouldn't be held against him. He was robbed of one, and lost one to a pitcher who had a career year.

If you're comparing players of today vs players of 50-75 years ago, then no player playing today is deserving.

Nobody is going to have a lifetime avg of .350, and nobody is going to throw 15-20 complete games per year (nor in their career). It's a great topic gor discussion.

Waino is not even close to Max who is a SLAM DUNK First Ballot Hall of Famer while Waino isn't a Hall of Famer.

There career stats and achievements aren't even close:

Max career
216 - 112
.659 winning%
3.16 ERA
3.19 FiP
1.08 WHiP
3408 Strikeouts

Three (3) Cy Young Awards (Eight Top 5 finishes)
Eight (8) All-Star Appearances

Hall of Fame Statistics
Max (27th):
75.3 career WAR | 47.5 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 61.4 S-JAWS | 5.5 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162


Waino
200 - 128
.610 winning%
3.53 ERA
3.54 FiP
1.24 WHiP
2202 Strikeouts

No Cy Young Awards (Four Top 5 finishes)
Three (3) time All-Star

Hall of Fame Statistics
JAWS
WAINO (132nd):
45.3 career WAR | 36.2 7yr-peak WAR | 40.8 JAWS | 40.8 S-JAWS | 3.4 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Waino is NOT a Hall of Famer

[sikeston bulldog2]

doubtful 200 puts Waino in the HOF
JMO

Waino isn't a Hall of Famer, I'm w/you.

And you can never say "never" but I wouldn't put any money on there being another 200 game winner.

Verlander-Max-Kershaw could be the last.

Any pitcher in today's game who is towards the end of the career who is worthy? Do you think Scherzer is? He and AW have very similar career stats.

I think AW is HOF worthy. Comparing him to the pitchers of his era, he rates right up there with the best.

Lack of a Cy award? That shouldn't be held against him. He was robbed of one, and lost one to a pitcher who had a career year.

If you're comparing players of today vs players of 50-75 years ago, then no player playing today is deserving.

Nobody is going to have a lifetime avg of .350, and nobody is going to throw 15-20 complete games per year (nor in their career). It's a great topic gor discussion.

Waino is not even close to Max who is a SLAM DUNK First Ballot Hall of Famer while Waino isn't a Hall of Famer.

There career stats and achievements aren't even close:

Max career
216 - 112
.659 winning%
3.16 ERA
3.19 FiP
1.08 WHiP
3408 Strikeouts

Three (3) Cy Young Awards (Eight Top 5 finishes)
Eight (8) All-Star Appearances

Hall of Fame Statistics
Max (27th):
75.3 career WAR | 47.5 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 61.4 S-JAWS | 5.5 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162


Waino
200 - 128
.610 winning%
3.53 ERA
3.54 FiP
1.24 WHiP
2202 Strikeouts

No Cy Young Awards (Four Top 5 finishes)
Three (3) time All-Star

Hall of Fame Statistics
JAWS
WAINO (132nd):
45.3 career WAR | 36.2 7yr-peak WAR | 40.8 JAWS | 40.8 S-JAWS | 3.4 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Waino is NOT a Hall of Famer

Without attrition who will be the next HOF. There just isn’t no good candidate. And with pitchers yielding their game fate earlier to the pens, the wins total will be even lower.

[rockondlouie]

doubtful 200 puts Waino in the HOF
JMO

Waino isn't a Hall of Famer, I'm w/you.

And you can never say "never" but I wouldn't put any money on there being another 200 game winner.

Verlander-Max-Kershaw could be the last.

Any pitcher in today's game who is towards the end of the career who is worthy? Do you think Scherzer is? He and AW have very similar career stats.

I think AW is HOF worthy. Comparing him to the pitchers of his era, he rates right up there with the best.

Lack of a Cy award? That shouldn't be held against him. He was robbed of one, and lost one to a pitcher who had a career year.

If you're comparing players of today vs players of 50-75 years ago, then no player playing today is deserving.

Nobody is going to have a lifetime avg of .350, and nobody is going to throw 15-20 complete games per year (nor in their career). It's a great topic gor discussion.

Waino is not even close to Max who is a SLAM DUNK First Ballot Hall of Famer while Waino isn't a Hall of Famer.

There career stats and achievements aren't even close:

Max career
216 - 112
.659 winning%
3.16 ERA
3.19 FiP
1.08 WHiP
3408 Strikeouts

Three (3) Cy Young Awards (Eight Top 5 finishes)
Eight (8) All-Star Appearances

Hall of Fame Statistics
Max (27th):
75.3 career WAR | 47.5 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 61.4 S-JAWS | 5.5 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162


Waino
200 - 128
.610 winning%
3.53 ERA
3.54 FiP
1.24 WHiP
2202 Strikeouts

No Cy Young Awards (Four Top 5 finishes)
Three (3) time All-Star

Hall of Fame Statistics
JAWS
WAINO (132nd):
45.3 career WAR | 36.2 7yr-peak WAR | 40.8 JAWS | 40.8 S-JAWS | 3.4 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 67):
72.9 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.3 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Waino is NOT a Hall of Famer

Without attrition who will be the next HOF. There just isn’t no good candidate. And with pitchers yielding their game fate earlier to the pens, the wins total will be even lower.

C. Beltran?
A. Jones?