Uh oh, should we be worried about the Libster?

[An Old Friend]

Worried or not, you gotta let the guy pitch through it.

But there's always a chance that a guy who has been jerked around like he has and last threw over 86 innings in 2022 (115) is going to start to wear down at some point during the season. To be clear, I am not saying that is why he had a bad start tonight after a not great one his last start. It happens. But it's something that I think we'll have to keep in mind come August or September.

Ronnie, at some point, we can't blame what Libby does today on what Oli/Mo did 2 years ago. And we can't blame Oli on not removing Libby RIGHT after his fastball started to drop.

There's a little infantilization going on here.

When Libby does well: "Finally, they are giving him a chance!"
When Libby doesn't do well: "That dumb Oli... blah blah."

OK, don't be ridiculous. Velocity drop is a major waiving red flag. ANY pitcher should be pulled when there is an in-game sharp velocity drop like that.

There's no reason to suggest otherwise. Why would YOU advocate that a pitcher who has sudden velocity loss should STAY out there? I'd love to see your reasoning.

I think the infantilizing and blaming are a little ridiculous.

So your argument is that a pitcher who is clearly compromised and potentially hurt... as evidenced by a sudden velocity drop... should stay in the game anyway, because taking him out would be treating him like a baby.

That's funny, man, even for you.

Dude hits a wall on June 5th, and we are blaming it on how Oli pitched him in 2023. And we are also blaming Oli for not noticing the fatigue right away.

I didn't say that. Careful with the "we" stuff.

Jeez... I know Libby is your pet project, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

You didn't take very long to get dumb on this one.

My ONLY argument is that a pitcher should be removed at first sign of a sudden velocity drop.

You're not only calling that ridiculous but suggesting that they should leave a compromised pitcher in because anything else is treating them like babies.

You gotta take a step back and look at what you're actually saying.

[ecleme22]

Worried or not, you gotta let the guy pitch through it.

But there's always a chance that a guy who has been jerked around like he has and last threw over 86 innings in 2022 (115) is going to start to wear down at some point during the season. To be clear, I am not saying that is why he had a bad start tonight after a not great one his last start. It happens. But it's something that I think we'll have to keep in mind come August or September.

Ronnie, at some point, we can't blame what Libby does today on what Oli/Mo did 2 years ago. And we can't blame Oli on not removing Libby RIGHT after his fastball started to drop.

There's a little infantilization going on here.

When Libby does well: "Finally, they are giving him a chance!"
When Libby doesn't do well: "That dumb Oli... blah blah."

OK, don't be ridiculous. Velocity drop is a major waiving red flag. ANY pitcher should be pulled when there is an in-game sharp velocity drop like that.

There's no reason to suggest otherwise. Why would YOU advocate that a pitcher who has sudden velocity loss should STAY out there? I'd love to see your reasoning.

I think the infantilizing and blaming are a little ridiculous.

So your argument is that a pitcher who is clearly compromised and potentially hurt... as evidenced by a sudden velocity drop... should stay in the game anyway, because taking him out would be treating him like a baby.

That's funny, man, even for you.

Dude hits a wall on June 5th, and we are blaming it on how Oli pitched him in 2023. And we are also blaming Oli for not noticing the fatigue right away.

I didn't say that. Careful with the "we" stuff.

Jeez... I know Libby is your pet project, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

You didn't take very long to get dumb on this one.

My ONLY argument is that a pitcher should be removed at first sign of a sudden velocity drop.

You're not only calling that ridiculous but suggesting that they should leave a compromised pitcher in because anything else is treating them like babies.

You gotta take a step back and look at what you're actually saying.

You didn’t refute Ronnie.

Quit with the infantilizing and pushing blame.

Dude might be gassed on June 5th. That’s concerning.

[An Old Friend]

You didn’t refute Ronnie.

Quit with the infantilizing and pushing blame.

Dude might be gassed on June 5th. That’s concerning.

To be crystal clear, here is what I said that you are disputing.

They should’ve pulled him when the velocity dropped. They HAVE to be in tune to that. Instead they sent him out for ANOTHER inning. That’s how you hurt guys.

Stop with the other nonsense you're trying to weave in. Taking out a compromised pitcher is not "infantilizing" (weird word to be obsessed with, but whatever).It's common sense.

Why do you lack common sense?

[rockondlouie]

Was at last nights game

You could see early on he wasn't comfortable on the mound.

It's a bit late but I wonder if he has a "Dead Arm", the kind many pitchers get some time during the first half coming out of spring training?

He looked incredibly hittable, his fastball was flat.

He knew it and you could tell as he wasn't attacking hitters like he has most of the season prior to the last two starts.

If they weren't in this killer stretch, then I'd be tempted to have him skip a start.

Maybe they should anyway as a precaution?

JMO

[11WSChamps]

It might be interesting to see what Liberatore's "side session" in a few days brings about if indeed he has one.

Skipping a start may be in the offing just to be on the safe side.

Afterall the club is supposed to be looking long term right?

[ecleme22]

You didn’t refute Ronnie.

Quit with the infantilizing and pushing blame.

Dude might be gassed on June 5th. That’s concerning.

To be crystal clear, here is what I said that you are disputing.

They should’ve pulled him when the velocity dropped. They HAVE to be in tune to that. Instead they sent him out for ANOTHER inning. That’s how you hurt guys.

Stop with the other nonsense you're trying to weave in. Taking out a compromised pitcher is not "infantilizing" (weird word to be obsessed with, but whatever).It's common sense.

Why do you lack common sense?

Hey sport.

I was also replying to Ronnie

[Cusecards]

YTD he has been very good until his last two starts.
Might just need a break?
McGreevy is pitching this weekend I believe?
Matz is always an option.

[11WSChamps]

YTD he has been very good until his last two starts.
Might just need a break?
McGreevy is pitching this weekend I believe?
Matz is always an option.

Yeah the team has options and no reason to push Liberatore when it was predictable he was probably going to go through a period like this anyway at some point this season.

Kid doesn't need anymore setbacks like risking injury just when he's having some success.

[slimjay63801]

Yes he's not a starter and neither is Pallante

1 month ago:

Gray and Liberatore are turning into a nice 1-2 in the rotation

Vegas:

You change your mind every game?

It's a stupid message board about sports. Kneejerk and ridiculous comments should be encouraged. It's what allows fans a proper place to vent so their sports frustrations don't carry over into their real life.

I'm more concerned about a guy who remembers what someone said a month ago and takes the time to go back, look it up, and reproduce it. A little creepsters there. lol
[/quote
This!!

[An Old Friend]

You didn’t refute Ronnie.

Quit with the infantilizing and pushing blame.

Dude might be gassed on June 5th. That’s concerning.

To be crystal clear, here is what I said that you are disputing.

They should’ve pulled him when the velocity dropped. They HAVE to be in tune to that. Instead they sent him out for ANOTHER inning. That’s how you hurt guys.

Stop with the other nonsense you're trying to weave in. Taking out a compromised pitcher is not "infantilizing" (weird word to be obsessed with, but whatever).It's common sense.

Why do you lack common sense?

Hey sport.

I was also replying to Ronnie

You replied directly to me and said I was "infantilizing" and pushing blame. You don't need to pretend that didn't happen.

So, I'm making it clear what exactly I said that you're calling that.

You could own up and just agree that pitchers should be pulled when this happens. How could you possibly disagree with what I said? Other than your incessant need to argue, of course.

Anyone with a working brain understands this, and you're seeing that throughout the thread.

[Cusecards]

YTD he has been very good until his last two starts.
Might just need a break?
McGreevy is pitching this weekend I believe?
Matz is always an option.

Yeah the team has options and no reason to push Liberatore when it was predictable he was probably going to go through a period like this anyway at some point this season.

Kid doesn't need anymore setbacks like risking injury just when he's having some success.

I have been pleasantly surprised with Libby.
Expected him to move permanently to the BP.
If he flames out as a SP we know he’ll be strong out of the pen.
Rotation will be a work in progress all season into next.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I think the infantilizing and blaming are a little ridiculous.

Dude hits a wall on June 5th, and we are blaming it on how Oli pitched him in 2023. And we are also blaming Oli for not noticing the fatigue right away.

Jeez... I know Libby is your pet project, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

I didn't blame his outing yesterday on how he was mismanaged in the past. I did agree that a guy who averages 94+ on his fastball should probably be pulled when he's struggling to get it above 90, though.

What I did say, and I don't think it's controversial, that a guy who is on pace for something like 180 innings and has thrown 86, 125, 149, and 124 innings since coming here in 2021 is likely to hit a big wall in the later part of this year. And the reason for that is because the Cardinals mismanaged him for whatever reason.

[Sweet Jones]

Yes he's not a starter and neither is Pallante

1 month ago:

Gray and Liberatore are turning into a nice 1-2 in the rotation

[renostl]

I think the infantilizing and blaming are a little ridiculous.

Dude hits a wall on June 5th, and we are blaming it on how Oli pitched him in 2023. And we are also blaming Oli for not noticing the fatigue right away.

Jeez... I know Libby is your pet project, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

I didn't blame his outing yesterday on how he was mismanaged in the past. I did agree that a guy who averages 94+ on his fastball should probably be pulled when he's struggling to get it above 90, though.

What I did say, and I don't think it's controversial, that a guy who is on pace for something like 180 innings and has thrown 86, 125, 149, and 124 innings since coming here in 2021 is likely to hit a big wall in the later part of this year. And the reason for that is because the Cardinals mismanaged him for whatever reason.

That can stand alone as a truth without the latter.

IMO, He would not have fared well at the MLB level much earlier as a SP. It then becomes a matter of where
would he learned more in taking that next step. The MiLB facing those hitters or the MLB facing these hitters
where he himself claims he learned to attack hitters. Would he have got that in MiLB? maybe. But what if he didn't
and failed as a SP, would he be penciled in as a BP guy now?

Hopefully he's not injured and just needs an adjustment or rest. We'll find out soon.

https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/news/matt ... e73a726138

[BrockFloodMaris]

Probably an IL visit. Hopefully not TJ. Not a good sign when velocity drops.

Wainwright used to talk about mid-season “dead arm”. Maybe Lib needs to skip a start. 30 starts and 150 innings are big numbers.

Hahaha.....big numbers!

I know, I know what you mean. I get it this day and age, but man have guys become SOFT anymore?!?! Crazy, isnt it?!?

I hear that it is a result of maximum weight training, max velocity and max spin rate. Starters today are more like long RPs used to be.

[renostl]

Probably an IL visit. Hopefully not TJ. Not a good sign when velocity drops.

Wainwright used to talk about mid-season “dead arm”. Maybe Lib needs to skip a start. 30 starts and 150 innings are big numbers.

Hahaha.....big numbers!

I know, I know what you mean. I get it this day and age, but man have guys become SOFT anymore?!?! Crazy, isnt it?!?

I hear that it is a result of maximum weight training, max velocity and max spin rate. Starters today are more like long RPs used to be.

Yes.
I think that expecting max spin and max velocity for 300 IP isn't possible and not a weakness
of todays pitchers. Those 300 IP years were prior to 1981.

IF we look at a physical freak and HOFer in Nolan Ryan after his 300 IP season he averaged
206 IP's a season not that lore of 300. He also paid the price with his golden arm.
Again a HOFer threshold to live up to.

200 is more reasonable expectation in the current environment IMO.
IF Libs can do what he has been doing for 33 starts he'll be at 187 IP's seems pretty solid to me.