Utah looking for a young top 6 winger for their 4th OA

[AtillaTheBlue1]

i'd give my left nut also, if they took kyrou for their #4.

We could move that pick plus others to get our #2 center.


#2 center, plus snuggy will make up for kyrous goal scoring.

[Younghopp1991]

i'd give my left nut also, if they took kyrou for their #4.

We could move that pick plus others to get our #2 center.


#2 center, plus snuggy will make up for kyrous goal scoring.

Why would the team trading us a 2c not just go to the source and get the pick themselves? Center is a much more coveted position and centers move to wing, not wing to center

[dhsux]

Just for grins wondering if some of the draft gurus could tell me where JK would go on a re draft today?

I'm sure it's not #4 right? .......but the supposition of all this chatter that he can bring this strikes me as rather odd.

Since he's a proven commodity....I get the enhanced value.

Just by chance I also get the same. Proven commodity.

[TheHighHat]

This is a very interesting topic & makes for a great discussion. We know if this trade were to occur, the Blues are a picking a center. There is no RHD in this draft that warrants the #4 pick, correct? So we're talking Frondell or Desnoyers. What is the expectation of them? #2 C for sure and possible /probable #1 C? Then the next question is how close to NHL ready are they. Are we talking 2 years or 4 years? And I understand no one can know that for sure.

Seems like everyone talks about how hard it is to get quality centers & with our surplus of wingers???? I don't know. I see both sides, but might be leaning to making that deal. Especially when that frees up $8 million.

If our scouts have Desnoyers and Frondell projected at minimum as high quality 2C's you make the deal without hesitation.
I get the point that Kyrou is proven but he is a non physical winger. He's also no longer a kid.
I also believe most posters here feel the Blues are closer to winning the Cup than I do.

How many teams are looking for upgrades at 1C's or 2C's? It's easier to count the teams that aren't.
Teams are going to overspend on the center slop available because of lack of supply. The Avs have already jumped in.

Buchnevich played RW almost exclusively in NY and I recall there being stories when we acquired him that he prefers that side.
Buch & Snugs on the right.
Holloway & Neighbours on the left with Bolduc a possibility as a top 6 winger instead of Neighbours.

Other things to consider:
* Bill Armstrong was running our draft when we selected Kyrou.
* If the report is true, B. Army must feel that Hayton has finally turned the corner and will be his 2C for years to come.

* Only 1 Cup winning 2C in the Cap era was an UFA. That was Brad Richards and there is an asterisk next to him because he was bought out of his contract by the Rangers and then signed a 1 year deal with the Hawks. Not your typical UFA.
* Zero Cup winning UFA 1C's in the cap era. I don't believe there has ever been a Cup winning UFA 1C in league history.

The point being that it is highly unlikely that you're going to win the Cup by signing top centers via free agency.
That leaves draft and trades. Again, supply and demand.
When was the last time there was a shortage of scoring wingers?

If you get a chance to draft a potential 1C or 2C, you do it and never look back. Not all hit, but that's life.
It would be a great problem to have if Dvorsky and one of the centers we're discussing both hit big.

I doubt it goes down, but it is fun to debate.

[noted]

From an asset value standpoint, I could understand it but where the Blues are at, they need to be building the current roster, not taking away from it to gain another 17/18 yr old.

Bolduc + a prospect? I’d do that but Utah wouldn’t.

Kyrou was top-5 in the league in 5 on 5 goals, correct? I don’t think some fans truly appreciate what we’d be removing from our roster if we traded him away.

I, like many on here, respect your opinion, with that being said, I don't think you're considering the OP's entire post in this "thought exercise".

If you have a deal in place to sign Marner (to replace Kyrou), would you do this trade? It's not Kyrou for a top prospect/pick, it's Kyrou and his cap space for a top pick AND Marner. I think that changes the context considerably (it also makes it considerably less likely to happen).

I wouldn't move Faulk as we'd need a 2nd RHD (or at least until we have that replacement just like Marner for Kyrou) but you could move some lower level forwards (Texier and/or Joseph) and a LHD like Leddy to get any extra cap space needed for Marner.

Marner is not coming to STL. The Blues are not even listed in the odds for the top 15 teams that might sign him.

And yes - you trade Kyrou for #4 overall

[stlblues1979]

This is a very interesting topic & makes for a great discussion. We know if this trade were to occur, the Blues are a picking a center. There is no RHD in this draft that warrants the #4 pick, correct? So we're talking Frondell or Desnoyers. What is the expectation of them? #2 C for sure and possible /probable #1 C? Then the next question is how close to NHL ready are they. Are we talking 2 years or 4 years? And I understand no one can know that for sure.

Seems like everyone talks about how hard it is to get quality centers & with our surplus of wingers???? I don't know. I see both sides, but might be leaning to making that deal. Especially when that frees up $8 million.

If our scouts have Desnoyers and Frondell projected at minimum as high quality 2C's you make the deal without hesitation.
I get the point that Kyrou is proven but he is a non physical winger. He's also no longer a kid.
I also believe most posters here feel the Blues are closer to winning the Cup than I do.

How many teams are looking for upgrades at 1C's or 2C's? It's easier to count the teams that aren't.
Teams are going to overspend on the center slop available because of lack of supply. The Avs have already jumped in.

Buchnevich played RW almost exclusively in NY and I recall there being stories when we acquired him that he prefers that side.
Buch & Snugs on the right.
Holloway & Neighbours on the left with Bolduc a possibility as a top 6 winger instead of Neighbours.

Other things to consider:
* Bill Armstrong was running our draft when we selected Kyrou.
* If the report is true, B. Army must feel that Hayton has finally turned the corner and will be his 2C for years to come.

* Only 1 Cup winning 2C in the Cap era was an UFA. That was Brad Richards and there is an asterisk next to him because he was bought out of his contract by the Rangers and then signed a 1 year deal with the Hawks. Not your typical UFA.
* Zero Cup winning UFA 1C's in the cap era. I don't believe there has ever been a Cup winning UFA 1C in league history.

The point being that it is highly unlikely that you're going to win the Cup by signing top centers via free agency.
That leaves draft and trades. Again, supply and demand.
When was the last time there was a shortage of scoring wingers?

If you get a chance to draft a potential 1C or 2C, you do it and never look back. Not all hit, but that's life.
It would be a great problem to have if Dvorsky and one of the centers we're discussing both hit big.

I doubt it goes down, but it is fun to debate.

That's how I'm looking at it & I appreciate the extra info. So as we're discussing hypotheticals, let me ask you this. Utah says we'll trade our #4 pick straight up for Kyrou or for Bolduc & your #19 pick. Your choice, Army!

What would you choose? Which would be a better option for the Blues, trading Kyrou & gaining $8 million or trading Bolduc & the 19th pick?

[stanw]

This is a very interesting topic & makes for a great discussion. We know if this trade were to occur, the Blues are a picking a center. There is no RHD in this draft that warrants the #4 pick, correct? So we're talking Frondell or Desnoyers. What is the expectation of them? #2 C for sure and possible /probable #1 C? Then the next question is how close to NHL ready are they. Are we talking 2 years or 4 years? And I understand no one can know that for sure.

Seems like everyone talks about how hard it is to get quality centers & with our surplus of wingers???? I don't know. I see both sides, but might be leaning to making that deal. Especially when that frees up $8 million.

If our scouts have Desnoyers and Frondell projected at minimum as high quality 2C's you make the deal without hesitation.
I get the point that Kyrou is proven but he is a non physical winger. He's also no longer a kid.
I also believe most posters here feel the Blues are closer to winning the Cup than I do.

How many teams are looking for upgrades at 1C's or 2C's? It's easier to count the teams that aren't.
Teams are going to overspend on the center slop available because of lack of supply. The Avs have already jumped in.

Buchnevich played RW almost exclusively in NY and I recall there being stories when we acquired him that he prefers that side.
Buch & Snugs on the right.
Holloway & Neighbours on the left with Bolduc a possibility as a top 6 winger instead of Neighbours.

Other things to consider:
* Bill Armstrong was running our draft when we selected Kyrou.
* If the report is true, B. Army must feel that Hayton has finally turned the corner and will be his 2C for years to come.

* Only 1 Cup winning 2C in the Cap era was an UFA. That was Brad Richards and there is an asterisk next to him because he was bought out of his contract by the Rangers and then signed a 1 year deal with the Hawks. Not your typical UFA.
* Zero Cup winning UFA 1C's in the cap era. I don't believe there has ever been a Cup winning UFA 1C in league history.

The point being that it is highly unlikely that you're going to win the Cup by signing top centers via free agency.
That leaves draft and trades. Again, supply and demand.
When was the last time there was a shortage of scoring wingers?

If you get a chance to draft a potential 1C or 2C, you do it and never look back. Not all hit, but that's life.
It would be a great problem to have if Dvorsky and one of the centers we're discussing both hit big.

I doubt it goes down, but it is fun to debate.

That's how I'm looking at it & I appreciate the extra info. So as we're discussing hypotheticals, let me ask you this. Utah says we'll trade our #4 pick straight up for Kyrou or for Bolduc & your #19 pick. Your choice, Army!

What would you choose? Which would be a better option for the Blues, trading Kyrou & gaining $8 million or trading Bolduc & the 19th pick?

I think trying Kyrou and getting the $8 million to work with, I also think that Bolduc and Snuggerud will more than make-up what Kyrou gave you between the two of them.

[Phil McCrakin]

From an asset value standpoint, I could understand it but where the Blues are at, they need to be building the current roster, not taking away from it to gain another 17/18 yr old.

Bolduc + a prospect? I’d do that but Utah wouldn’t.

Kyrou was top-5 in the league in 5 on 5 goals, correct? I don’t think some fans truly appreciate what we’d be removing from our roster if we traded him away.

I would wait on making any trade involving Bolduc right now (unless Blues get a great deal for 2C). He is 22yrs old, in 97 NHL games he has 24 goals and 45 points. Kyrou at that age had 97 NHL games 19 goals and 47 points.

[Phil McCrakin]

From an asset value standpoint, I could understand it but where the Blues are at, they need to be building the current roster, not taking away from it to gain another 17/18 yr old.

Bolduc + a prospect? I’d do that but Utah wouldn’t.

Kyrou was top-5 in the league in 5 on 5 goals, correct? I don’t think some fans truly appreciate what we’d be removing from our roster if we traded him away.

I would wait on making any trade involving Bolduc right now (unless Blues get a great deal for 2C). He is 22yrs old, in 97 NHL games he has 24 goals and 45 points. Kyrou at that age had 97 NHL games 19 goals and 47 points.

My mistake. Bolduc has played 94 NHL games not 97

[STL fan in MN]

Just for grins wondering if some of the draft gurus could tell me where JK would go on a re draft today?

I'm sure it's not #4 right? .......but the supposition of all this chatter that he can bring this strikes me as rather odd.

Since he's a proven commodity....I get the enhanced value.

Just by chance I also get the same. Proven commodity.

Kyrou is currently 9th in pts among 2016 draftees behind Matthews, M.Tkachuk, Debrincat, Keller, Bratt, Laine, Dubois and Fox. In a re-draft, I’d put all of those guys ahead of Kyrou. Laine is debatable as he’s fallen off and is a pretty flawed player but he shot his career out of a cannon and those good years still count. Then there’s Tage Thompson right behind Kyrou in pts. But he has more goals so I’d take TT. Then there’s 4 d-men I’d rank ahead of Kyrou today - Sergashev, McAvoy, Chychrun and Hronek. So I’d place 14th in a 2016 re-draft. TBH, going into this exercise, I expected him to end up somewhere in the 5-10 range but the 2016 draft was better than I remember it.

However, where a player would fall in a theoretical re-draft doesn’t necessarily mean their value in terms of being assets would be in the same order. Let’s say Player A is better but has 1 year left on his deal and then he’s going to want to cash in huge whereas Player B isn’t quite as good but is signed for 6 more years at an AAV that’s fair today and looks like it’ll be a steal more and more each year the cap increases. Player A is better but Player B is worth more as an asset.

So given Kyrou’s contract and zero trade protection (for a few more weeks anyway) he’d be worth quite a bit as an asset. Would he be worth the 4th overall? Idk. Hinestly, I can’t think of a single trade where a top-5 pick was traded straight up for an established player. The closest I can recall is 12 years ago VAN traded Cory Schneider to NJ for the 9th overall (which they used to draft Horvat). I personally would think Bill Armstrong would want more but idk. There’s really no precedent for such a trade.

[skilles]

There is going to be more than 4 players in this draft better than Kyrou almost certainly but on the flip side there is no guarantee Utah will get one of them with the 4th pick.

While there are 8 players with more points than Kyrou from the 2016 draft and even more players that are better than he is the #4 overall is not one of them (Jesse Puljujarvi)

I personally think it would be crazy for a team in their position to trade the 4th OA pick for Kyrou but hey if they want to play stupid games I'd probably accommodate.

Which is why it never happens, its not that its lopsided value as much as teams that own top 5 picks generally are not in a position for something like that to make any sense at all. Makes a little more sense with Utah moving way up in the lottery but still a little crazy IMO.

[TheHighHat]

This is a very interesting topic & makes for a great discussion. We know if this trade were to occur, the Blues are a picking a center. There is no RHD in this draft that warrants the #4 pick, correct? So we're talking Frondell or Desnoyers. What is the expectation of them? #2 C for sure and possible /probable #1 C? Then the next question is how close to NHL ready are they. Are we talking 2 years or 4 years? And I understand no one can know that for sure.

Seems like everyone talks about how hard it is to get quality centers & with our surplus of wingers???? I don't know. I see both sides, but might be leaning to making that deal. Especially when that frees up $8 million.

If our scouts have Desnoyers and Frondell projected at minimum as high quality 2C's you make the deal without hesitation.
I get the point that Kyrou is proven but he is a non physical winger. He's also no longer a kid.
I also believe most posters here feel the Blues are closer to winning the Cup than I do.

How many teams are looking for upgrades at 1C's or 2C's? It's easier to count the teams that aren't.
Teams are going to overspend on the center slop available because of lack of supply. The Avs have already jumped in.

Buchnevich played RW almost exclusively in NY and I recall there being stories when we acquired him that he prefers that side.
Buch & Snugs on the right.
Holloway & Neighbours on the left with Bolduc a possibility as a top 6 winger instead of Neighbours.

Other things to consider:
* Bill Armstrong was running our draft when we selected Kyrou.
* If the report is true, B. Army must feel that Hayton has finally turned the corner and will be his 2C for years to come.

* Only 1 Cup winning 2C in the Cap era was an UFA. That was Brad Richards and there is an asterisk next to him because he was bought out of his contract by the Rangers and then signed a 1 year deal with the Hawks. Not your typical UFA.
* Zero Cup winning UFA 1C's in the cap era. I don't believe there has ever been a Cup winning UFA 1C in league history.

The point being that it is highly unlikely that you're going to win the Cup by signing top centers via free agency.
That leaves draft and trades. Again, supply and demand.
When was the last time there was a shortage of scoring wingers?

If you get a chance to draft a potential 1C or 2C, you do it and never look back. Not all hit, but that's life.
It would be a great problem to have if Dvorsky and one of the centers we're discussing both hit big.

I doubt it goes down, but it is fun to debate.

That's how I'm looking at it & I appreciate the extra info. So as we're discussing hypotheticals, let me ask you this. Utah says we'll trade our #4 pick straight up for Kyrou or for Bolduc & your #19 pick. Your choice, Army!

What would you choose? Which would be a better option for the Blues, trading Kyrou & gaining $8 million or trading Bolduc & the 19th pick?

That's a no-brainer for me: Trade Kyrou. Keep Bolduc & 19

When discussing various trade proposals I really prefer to look at the proposed partner in the deal and make sure the return, cap implications, and reasoning are sound.

Giving up the 4th pick for immediate help means that Bill Armstrong feels his team will make the playoffs with a relatively healthy year and/or he is being pushed to improve now by ownership.

Utah definitely needs 2nd line help and having Guenther or Kyrou as their 2RW would help their goal production.
Utah was tied for only 20th in goals this past season.

Utah's top wingers
C. Keller
D. Guenther
N. Schmaltz
L. Crouse
M. Maccelli
J. Doan

Keller & Guenther are definitely top 6 wingers.

Schmaltz is basically Kyrou Light.
He has had decent consistent production for Utah but to me if he is in your top 6 you are what they have been: a non playoff team. Schmaltz is soft and is more of a guy that mainly produces because of his power play time.
If they acquired Kyrou, Schmaltz's production would probably drop significantly unless they play him on the LW opposite Kyrou.
The good news for Utah is that he in the last year of his contract.

Crouse would be the LW I would play with Kyrou because of his size and different style of play. The argument is that Kyrou needs another speedster (Holloway) to play opposite him to drive the rush.

Keller-Cooley-Guenther
Crouse-Hayton-Kyrou
Maccelli-McBain-Schmaltz

If Utah would acquire Kyrou I believe that they would look to move Maccelli, Schmaltz, or Kerfoot.
Since Schmaltz can play center in an injury pinch, Maccelli could be the odd man out.

I'm sure that Bill Armstrong feels his team would have made the playoffs if his top 2 RHD (Durzi & Marino) didn't miss 45-50 games each. Obviously neither of those guys are considered top pair talented, but their injuries out of the gate put the Mammoth behind the 8 ball right away.

Being in the newer market and possibly being pushed by ownership to expedite the rebuild are the other factors that can't be discounted so this trade proposal isn't as far fetched like most other fantasy proposals. Intra-divisional trade is an issue though.

[dhsux]

Just for grins wondering if some of the draft gurus could tell me where JK would go on a re draft today?

I'm sure it's not #4 right? .......but the supposition of all this chatter that he can bring this strikes me as rather odd.

Since he's a proven commodity....I get the enhanced value.

Just by chance I also get the same. Proven commodity.

Kyrou is currently 9th in pts among 2016 draftees behind Matthews, M.Tkachuk, Debrincat, Keller, Bratt, Laine, Dubois and Fox. In a re-draft, I’d put all of those guys ahead of Kyrou. Laine is debatable as he’s fallen off and is a pretty flawed player but he shot his career out of a cannon and those good years still count. Then there’s Tage Thompson right behind Kyrou in pts. But he has more goals so I’d take TT. Then there’s 4 d-men I’d rank ahead of Kyrou today - Sergashev, McAvoy, Chychrun and Hronek. So I’d place 14th in a 2016 re-draft. TBH, going into this exercise, I expected him to end up somewhere in the 5-10 range but the 2016 draft was better than I remember it.

However, where a player would fall in a theoretical re-draft doesn’t necessarily mean their value in terms of being assets would be in the same order. Let’s say Player A is better but has 1 year left on his deal and then he’s going to want to cash in huge whereas Player B isn’t quite as good but is signed for 6 more years at an AAV that’s fair today and looks like it’ll be a steal more and more each year the cap increases. Player A is better but Player B is worth more as an asset.

So given Kyrou’s contract and zero trade protection (for a few more weeks anyway) he’d be worth quite a bit as an asset. Would he be worth the 4th overall? Idk. Hinestly, I can’t think of a single trade where a top-5 pick was traded straight up for an established player. The closest I can recall is 12 years ago VAN traded Cory Schneider to NJ for the 9th overall (which they used to draft Horvat). I personally would think Bill Armstrong would want more but idk. There’s really no precedent for such a trade.

Thank you Minnesota. Just what I was asking about. (A bit surprised to see Chychrun that high on your list)

Would you agree the risk here is greater for the Blues than Utah?

[Tony Palazzolo]

Kyrou gets a rough ride in this place. I don't get it. He should, though, be hitting the weight room, adding some mass. I don't think we've seen his best yet.

What’s funny to me is it’s a lot of the same people who thought Tarasenko was some sort of complete star player.

I'd agree that Tank always felt like he wasn't working hard enough. Yet, you'd see a chart of the most goals scored over so many seasons and Tank was 2nd behind Ovie.

[TheJackBurton]

If it was 2 years ago, I do it without hesitation.

Now? On a player who likely won't contribute for 2 years if not 3? Not interested for Kyrou.

The Blues aren't in rebuild mode anymore. Burning 3 more years of Parayko, Thomas, Binnington, Schenn, Neighbours, etc etc just doesn't make any sense.

We need to add established players, not subtract and then wait.

When (whoever the drafted center would be) would be a contributor we could potentially have a defense that is significantly changed, an aging goaltender, or major issues with our wingers.

Would I love to have a #4 overall who is working his way to possibly take on a #1 center role? Oh hell yes, but I wanted him 2 years ago. Now giving up what it would cost and how much it would potentially set us back? I don't think so.

[STL fan in MN]

Just for grins wondering if some of the draft gurus could tell me where JK would go on a re draft today?

I'm sure it's not #4 right? .......but the supposition of all this chatter that he can bring this strikes me as rather odd.

Since he's a proven commodity....I get the enhanced value.

Just by chance I also get the same. Proven commodity.

Kyrou is currently 9th in pts among 2016 draftees behind Matthews, M.Tkachuk, Debrincat, Keller, Bratt, Laine, Dubois and Fox. In a re-draft, I’d put all of those guys ahead of Kyrou. Laine is debatable as he’s fallen off and is a pretty flawed player but he shot his career out of a cannon and those good years still count. Then there’s Tage Thompson right behind Kyrou in pts. But he has more goals so I’d take TT. Then there’s 4 d-men I’d rank ahead of Kyrou today - Sergashev, McAvoy, Chychrun and Hronek. So I’d place 14th in a 2016 re-draft. TBH, going into this exercise, I expected him to end up somewhere in the 5-10 range but the 2016 draft was better than I remember it.

However, where a player would fall in a theoretical re-draft doesn’t necessarily mean their value in terms of being assets would be in the same order. Let’s say Player A is better but has 1 year left on his deal and then he’s going to want to cash in huge whereas Player B isn’t quite as good but is signed for 6 more years at an AAV that’s fair today and looks like it’ll be a steal more and more each year the cap increases. Player A is better but Player B is worth more as an asset.

So given Kyrou’s contract and zero trade protection (for a few more weeks anyway) he’d be worth quite a bit as an asset. Would he be worth the 4th overall? Idk. Hinestly, I can’t think of a single trade where a top-5 pick was traded straight up for an established player. The closest I can recall is 12 years ago VAN traded Cory Schneider to NJ for the 9th overall (which they used to draft Horvat). I personally would think Bill Armstrong would want more but idk. There’s really no precedent for such a trade.

Thank you Minnesota. Just what I was asking about. (A bit surprised to see Chychrun that high on your list)

Would you agree the risk here is greater for the Blues than Utah?

I might personally value Kyrou higher than Chychrun, especially if their contracts are taken into account but Chychrun did just put up 47 pts as the Caps #1 d-man this season. In a re-draft, I’m ignoring contracts.

But yes, in a theoretical Kyrou for the 4th trade, the Blues would be taking on more risk. Quite a bit of it actually. The main risk is obvious - that the pick potentially busts. But other risks would be potentially disrupting the contention window. We’d be trading a 27 yr old for an 18 yr old that likely won’t be helping us for 2-3 years. Army declared the re-whatever over (which in and of itself tells me he wouldn’t do this deal) but let’s say he did do the deal, trading Kyrou would leave a big hole. We can say stuff like “Bolduc and Snuggy will just make up Kyrou’s goals” but that’s much easier said than done. It’d be a huge risk to trade the guy that’s led the team in goals each of the last 3 years and was top-5 in the entire league at 5 on 5 goals this season. Kyrou was garbage in the playoffs but I still contend folks don’t appreciate what he brings enough (and he was likely injured in the playoffs). He’s a flawed player but not exactly easily replaceable.

Other risks would be stuff like disrupting team chemistry (maybe Holloway struggles w/o Kyrou?). Another risk could be alienating some of the players. They feel they’re building to being a contender and then you trade away the team’s leading goal scorer?? I bet that’d make some of the guys in the room mad.

So why would the Blues ever consider to take on all of these risks? Because the kid picked at 4th would have a high likelihood of being better than Kyrou eventually. But it’s not a guarantee and the “eventually” part doesn’t really line up with the contention window they seem to be aiming for. So I doubt the Blues would consider something like this unless the really really wanted to get rid of Kyrou before his NTC kicked in for some reason.