When the collective bargaining agreement ends after 2026

[ScotchMIrish]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

That's a big issue and would do a lot to increase but the decline has come as a result of DH. It isn't either/or.

No one under the age of 50 cares that the DH went away, or they’ve accepted it. Younger people want offense. Older folks aren’t the target market.

Why aren't those younger people attending games or watching on TV?

[desertrat23]

NL owners need to get rid of the DH. The experiment has failed. Attendance is down. TV deal collapsing due to viewership.

I doubt they are smart enough to do it or tough enough to stand up to the unions.

You really think attendance is down because fans don't get to see Steven Matz and others like him swing a bat?

^^^^

Doesn't understand strategy.

Think about someone other than yourself and your age cohort:

You really think those people aren’t going to the ballpark because they don’t get to see Stephen Matz swing a bat?

[ScotchMIrish]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

That's a big issue and would do a lot to increase but the decline has come as a result of DH. It isn't either/or.

How many people do you think it would take telling you that you're wrong for you to eventually understand and acknowledge that you're wrong? Genuinely curious.

You've had a decent number of people respond to you already in the thread, and none come anywhere near agreement with you. Does that not resonate?

There are a lot of people who don't understand or enjoy strategy. They just want to get drunk and watch a game. There are also some who refuse to watch it which is a reason for the collapse of TV deals and attendance declining.

[desertrat23]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

That's a big issue and would do a lot to increase but the decline has come as a result of DH. It isn't either/or.

No one under the age of 50 cares that the DH went away, or they’ve accepted it. Younger people want offense. Older folks aren’t the target market.

Why aren't those younger people attending games or watching on TV?

Great question, but it ain’t because of the DH. Some reasons:

1. They don’t have cable and it’s hard to watch the games due to blackouts. This is the most asinine thing MLB does. Thankfully they’re taking steps to fix it, but slowly. They need MORE Apple and Roku games, not less. Sorry old-timers, adapt or die.

2. Tickets are expensive. That’s not true in STL where you can get super cheap tickets during the week, but in a lot of markets even those games cost a fortune. Of course, that makes the TV issue that much more critical.

3. No competitive balance. We’ve talked about this to death. The two most popular leagues in America are the NFL and NBA, where small markets can compete. The NBA Finals feature Indiana and Oklahoma, FFS. Everyone theoretically has a chance to win.

4. Baseball still has an image that’s staid, boring, slow, overly nostalgic. Tough for kids to relate to. We need MORE Aaron Judges and Shohei Ohtanis and Elly de la Cruz’. My son’s favorite Cardinals are Masyn Winn and VSII — guys who play with flair, ego, swagger. Any kid who plays baseball these days wants “drip” — necklaces, batting sleeves with their name on it, gloves with ice-cream patterns like Jazz Chisholm. We can sit around and talk about how Red Schoendienst wore a flannel uniform with no chains and high socks all we want, but that’s over with. Think flair. Personality. Swagger.

[Adam2]

NL owners need to get rid of the DH. The experiment has failed. Attendance is down. TV deal collapsing due to viewership.

I doubt they are smart enough to do it or tough enough to stand up to the unions.

You really think attendance is down because fans don't get to see Steven Matz and others like him swing a bat?

^^^^

Doesn't understand strategy.

I Do understand strategy. played and coached at a high level. You are only thinking about your preference. the bulk of viewers of MLB now aren't in the same line of thinking. they are only watching for face value entertainment. they no longer care about the chess moves of baseball. This is why baseball will never back off the DH. Their main current audience and future audience does not care about when to pinch hit or take a pitcher out due to him coming up to bat in the late innings. they want action.

baseball has to abide by that or continue to lose the 40 and under audience

accept it. whether you like it or not, your preference is ancient history

[illiniriles]

St Louis fans are still the best in baseball, Desert Rat. And I really miss the game that most of us played and that I fell in love with before any others. Both Scotch and myself probably accept the fact that the DH is here to stay. But that doesn't mean we have to like the fact that MLB ramrodded it down our throats without our consent. Do you really think in their heart of hearts Jack Buck, Mike Shannon, Al Hrybosky, Ricky Horton all believe or believed that the Universal DH would be good for the game? Of course not. And if they were not company shills, they would say so.
Okay, so I know some of my examples are no longer with us. But I assure you my views are not because I'm a dinosaur that cannot stand change. Fully support the automated strike zone, courtesy runner on second to start the 10th and subsequent innings, pitch clocks, limitations of stepping out of the box and mound visits and throws overs to first, etc.. So when I occasionally still DO attend a Redbird game in person, I will wear one of my altered Cardinal replica jerseys in protest of the biggest slap in the face, punch to the gut MLB ever perpetrated on its fans.
Just my humble opinion

[thetank2]

Let a team dissolve a contract at 50% of value similar to the NHL. One contract per year. If player signs with another team then adjustments are made.

[Adam2]

St Louis fans are still the best in baseball, Desert Rat. And I really miss the game that most of us played and that I fell in love with before any others. Both Scotch and myself probably accept the fact that the DH is here to stay. But that doesn't mean we have to like the fact that MLB ramrodded it down our throats without our consent. Do you really think in their heart of hearts Jack Buck, Mike Shannon, Al Hrybosky, Ricky Horton all believe or believed that the Universal DH would be good for the game? Of course not. And if they were not company shills, they would say so.
Okay, so I know some of my examples are no longer with us. But I assure you my views are not because I'm a dinosaur that cannot stand change. Fully support the automated strike zone, courtesy runner on second to start the 10th and subsequent innings, pitch clocks, limitations of stepping out of the box and mound visits and throws overs to first, etc.. So when I occasionally still DO attend a Redbird game in person, I will wear one of my altered Cardinal replica jerseys in protest of the biggest slap in the face, punch to the gut MLB ever perpetrated on its fans.
Just my humble opinion

without your consent? LOL. they had my consent, i guess that won them over

[WLTFE]

JFC!!! How can people stil (buzz) about the DH?.. continue your stupid protest while the rest of the world moves on!

[rockondlouie]

NL owners need to get rid of the DH. The experiment has failed. Attendance is down. TV deal collapsing due to viewership.

I doubt they are smart enough to do it or tough enough to stand up to the unions.

-NL loses the DH

-The idiotic, Little League Ghost runner literally disappears

-Japan/Korean League players must be subjected to the draft and NOT allowed to be signed as free agents (take that Dodgers), then given free agency after three years

-Interleague play is banished

-Pitchers don't have to face three batters before a change and can throw over to first as many times as they want

What makes baseball great is the strategic element, too much of it has been taken out of the game w/many of the above.

JMO

[desertrat23]

JFC!!! How can people stil (A female canine animal, especially a dog) about the DH?.. continue your stupid protest while the rest of the world moves on!

Dude…folks around here haven’t moved on from the end of Sunday doubleheaders and the fact that men don’t wear suits and ties to games anymore. Nobody moves on from anything.

[Futuregm2]

Scotch Irish, I'm right there with you. And I know you are a good baseball man, just like me. I don't know if the terrific posters ala RBIrules will remember many of my posts, but I know that you and I both have lamented that the Universal DH has almost ruined the game for us. And yes, I, like you don't watch or listen to the product nearly as much any more. We're not alone. We're just part of the silent majority. As far as all of the arguments in favor for instituting the Universal DH, I can refute every single one. But we get shouted down by those that support it.
Just a short list of folks that loved NL (no DH) baseball: Mark McGwyre, TLR, Adam Wainwright, Joe Madden, hell, even Dusty Baker. Believe me, Scotch, we're not alone. And if you ever see me at a Redbirds game, I'll be the bad (donkey), 66 year old cranky old man in the replica Cardinals Jersey that I've had the local seamstress alter with a DH in a circle with a diagonal line through it where the number should go. And what does it say for a name? NOLIKEY, IHATEIT, HOWCUM, DINTASKME, WHY, BADIDEA, or RILES. That's all I've had made thus far. Respect y'all that have divergent opinions from Scotch and myself, but as my dad used to say to me, "You're right, the world is wrong"
Sorry for the long reply

I didn't like the universal DH either. Since this thread started, I have been looking for empirical evidence to support the notion that its introduction is what caused attendance to go down. The universal DH went into effect in 2022. MLB average attendance 2022 - 2024 was 26, 566, 29,114, 29,373 and is down this year 27,973. The attendance figures for 2020 and 2021 are messed up because of COVID. Since attendance went up each of the first three years the DH was in place, the statistics don't back that up. I looked for articles agreeing with this premise and could not really find any other than some people griping they did not like it.

There are a number of articles on the subject about why fan attendance is down. One interesting theory that is in several articles is MLB now showing games on local tv and using multiple outlets to show games. For example Fan Dual, which I find easy to use, doesn't carry all the games. Some surveys have shown that fans are frustrated with having to purchase new apps, then after purchasing them, finding out it doesn't give them everything they wanted. It has been a huge turn off to some fans and these surveys believe that process has negatively impacted attendance. That goes along with the theory baseball is less popular with younger people and as the old stalwarts die out, MLB has to figure out how to generate more interest with the younger generation.

So I hear your comments. But....

Also it should be pointed out that while the average attendance so far this season is down compared to the previous 2 seasons, YOY it is up right now. So there’s still a good chance it ends up being up again by the end of the season once summer has helped the attendance numbers.

[Adam2]

St Louis fans are still the best in baseball, Desert Rat. And I really miss the game that most of us played and that I fell in love with before any others. Both Scotch and myself probably accept the fact that the DH is here to stay. But that doesn't mean we have to like the fact that MLB ramrodded it down our throats without our consent. Do you really think in their heart of hearts Jack Buck, Mike Shannon, Al Hrybosky, Ricky Horton all believe or believed that the Universal DH would be good for the game? Of course not. And if they were not company shills, they would say so.
Okay, so I know some of my examples are no longer with us. But I assure you my views are not because I'm a dinosaur that cannot stand change. Fully support the automated strike zone, courtesy runner on second to start the 10th and subsequent innings, pitch clocks, limitations of stepping out of the box and mound visits and throws overs to first, etc.. So when I occasionally still DO attend a Redbird game in person, I will wear one of my altered Cardinal replica jerseys in protest of the biggest slap in the face, punch to the gut MLB ever perpetrated on its fans.
Just my humble opinion

those gosh darn new fangled fans don't understand how to play baseball while WW2 is still going on

[JDW]

IF it comes down to a long lockout and work stoppage ............. yuck .......... just being worried out loud.

[illiniriles]

There will, indeed be a strike or lock out when the current CBA is up in my opinion. It will not be because of the DH. But if anyone on this board believes there will not be a significant backlash from a prolonged work stoppage they are sorely mistaken.
And gosh darn it, I weren't even alive in WW2 you consarned whippersnappers.

[Red7]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

That's a big issue and would do a lot to increase but the decline has come as a result of DH. It isn't either/or.

No one under the age of 50 cares that the DH went away, or they’ve accepted it. Younger people want offense. Older folks aren’t the target market.

Why aren't those younger people attending games or watching on TV?

Great question, but it ain’t because of the DH. Some reasons:

1. They don’t have cable and it’s hard to watch the games due to blackouts. This is the most asinine thing MLB does. Thankfully they’re taking steps to fix it, but slowly. They need MORE Apple and Roku games, not less. Sorry old-timers, adapt or die.

2. Tickets are expensive. That’s not true in STL where you can get super cheap tickets during the week, but in a lot of markets even those games cost a fortune. Of course, that makes the TV issue that much more critical.

3. No competitive balance. We’ve talked about this to death. The two most popular leagues in America are the NFL and NBA, where small markets can compete. The NBA Finals feature Indiana and Oklahoma, FFS. Everyone theoretically has a chance to win.

4. Baseball still has an image that’s staid, boring, slow, overly nostalgic. Tough for kids to relate to. We need MORE Aaron Judges and Shohei Ohtanis and Elly de la Cruz’. My son’s favorite Cardinals are Masyn Winn and VSII — guys who play with flair, ego, swagger. Any kid who plays baseball these days wants “drip” — necklaces, batting sleeves with their name on it, gloves with ice-cream patterns like Jazz Chisholm. We can sit around and talk about how Red Schoendienst wore a flannel uniform with no chains and high socks all we want, but that’s over with. Think flair. Personality. Swagger.

What separates the NFL (and college football as well) in terms of popularity compared to baseball especially, is gambling and fantasy. Point spreads and weekly fantasy are easier to understand and keep up with than betting lines and having to track your fantasy baseball teams on a daily basis. The backup TE of the Bucs will draw attention because if he lucks into a TD, you might win your fantasy league that week or some crazy prop bet.