Will Schenn trade bring equal to Brock Nelson?

[Pierre McGuire]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

[Old_Goat]

If Schenn is traded, will he bring equal to Brock Nelson? Let's see if Army can bring anything close.

For Brock Nelson, the Islanders recieved
1) Calum Ritchie (a 2023 draft pick that is claimed to be an elite 2-way center)
2) Oliver Kylington,
3) a conditional first pick
4) third-round pick

Who is claiming this?

He's already been traded once. How many elite late first-round picks are there, and how many of those get traded before they make it to the show?

But of course he must be elite, because Army failed to draft him. Or trade for him.

Some random article this Army hater found pumping up Ritchie to justify the trade for the Islanders. This troll thinks Army blew it because he took Otto Stenberg before Ritchie.

Quite the stretch given these prospects have a ways to go in their development. I think the Islanders might regret passing on Lindstein as they could use a defensive player like him in their prospect pool.

Excellent point re Lindstein. And further to drOzombie's post above...if I recall correctly, Dvorsky had been ranked potentially as a Top 5 by a couple of polls during the pre-Draft period? There will always be debate before, during and after a draft, but very many felt the Blues were fortuitous to have Dvorsky available at #10.

[stlblues1979]

If Schenn is traded, will he bring equal to Brock Nelson? Let's see if Army can bring anything close.

For Brock Nelson, the Islanders recieved
1) Calum Ritchie (a 2023 draft pick that is claimed to be an elite 2-way center)
2) Oliver Kylington,
3) a conditional first pick
4) third-round pick

Who is claiming this?

He's already been traded once. How many elite late first-round picks are there, and how many of those get traded before they make it to the show?

But of course he must be elite, because Army failed to draft him. Or trade for him.

Some random article this Army hater found pumping up Ritchie to justify the trade for the Islanders. This troll thinks Army blew it because he took Otto Stenberg before Ritchie.

Quite the stretch given these prospects have a ways to go in their development. I think the Islanders might regret passing on Lindstein as they could use a defensive player like him in their prospect pool.

Excellent point re Lindstein. And further to drOzombie's post above...if I recall correctly, Dvorsky had been ranked potentially as a Top 5 by a couple of polls during the pre-Draft period? There will always be debate before, during and after a draft, but very many felt the Blues were fortuitous to have Dvorsky available at #10.

As best as I can remember, you're exactly right. The Blues were ecstatic that Dvorsky was there at #10. Some other mock drafts & polls had him going higher than that position.

[Cujo's Mask]

ASOGG, forget that article. It is total fluff. Go look at the stats instead. Ritchie had 15 goals in his D+2 year in junior as one of the older players in the league and his points per game were 15th in the league thanks entirely to high assist totals. Ritchie also had just 2 points for Canada in the WJC (along with a 14 PIM's for an undisciplined squad that got bounced early).

Go look at Dvo's junior stats from the year before as a D+1. Dvo is 5 months younger, so essentially put up those totals 17 months ahead of watch Ritchie just did. That is what a top prospect does in juniors.

That being said, Ritchie has some really good tools. If he puts it together, he could be something. But the odds of him becoming an "elite" 2nd line center at this point are not great. And not better than Otto becoming a really good 2nd liner himself.

Don't just take that article's word for it.

[a smell of green grass]

ASOGG, forget that article. It is total fluff. Go look at the stats instead. Ritchie had 15 goals in his D+2 year in junior as one of the older players in the league and his points per game were 15th in the league thanks entirely to high assist totals. Ritchie also had just 2 points for Canada in the WJC (along with a 14 PIM's for an undisciplined squad that got bounced early).

Go look at Dvo's junior stats from the year before as a D+1. Dvo is 5 months younger, so essentially put up those totals 17 months ahead of watch Ritchie just did. That is what a top prospect does in juniors.

That being said, Ritchie has some really good tools. If he puts it together, he could be something. But the odds of him becoming an "elite" 2nd line center at this point are not great. And not better than Otto becoming a really good 2nd liner himself.

Don't just take that article's word for it.

Interesting and valid points. Thank you for the reply. The stats are very relevant as you say.

I'm not really comparing him to DVO as much as Stenberg since he was taken a few picks ahead of him. Nevertheless, the info does provide more hope for our prospects too. Mostly I'm bugged that Armstrong feels like a 200 ft player is what we are shopping for, and then he didn't act like DVO and Stenberg are on even on the radar.

Thanks again.

[Cujo's Mask]

ASOGG, forget that article. It is total fluff. Go look at the stats instead. Ritchie had 15 goals in his D+2 year in junior as one of the older players in the league and his points per game were 15th in the league thanks entirely to high assist totals. Ritchie also had just 2 points for Canada in the WJC (along with a 14 PIM's for an undisciplined squad that got bounced early).

Go look at Dvo's junior stats from the year before as a D+1. Dvo is 5 months younger, so essentially put up those totals 17 months ahead of watch Ritchie just did. That is what a top prospect does in juniors.

That being said, Ritchie has some really good tools. If he puts it together, he could be something. But the odds of him becoming an "elite" 2nd line center at this point are not great. And not better than Otto becoming a really good 2nd liner himself.

Don't just take that article's word for it.

Interesting and valid points. Thank you for the reply. The stats are very relevant as you say.

I'm not really comparing him to DVO as much as Stenberg since he was taken a few picks ahead of him. Nevertheless, the info does provide more hope for our prospects too. Mostly I'm bugged that Armstrong feels like a 200 ft player is what we are shopping for, and then he didn't act like DVO and Stenberg are on even on the radar.

Thanks again.

IMO, with projected guys like Snuggy and Bolduc on the roster, I think Army was referring to an established (or near established) player that can make an immediate impact like Holloway did. Dvo and Stenberg are not yet that. Neither is Ritchie. If you could get someone (at center) like Nelson, that would fit what Army is referencing here in the short term.

[moose-and-squirrel]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

if I had to guess, it was more TOR asking about Schenn than Army shopping him

again, just a guess

[Pierre McGuire]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

if I had to guess, it was more TOR asking about Schenn than Army shopping him

again, just a guess

It was more than asking..they had a deal agreed upon.

[a smell of green grass]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

if I had to guess, it was more TOR asking about Schenn than Army shopping him

again, just a guess

It was more than asking..they had a deal agreed upon.

I wish we know what the agreed-upon deal was with TOR. I'd like to compare it to the Brock Nelson deal. If TOR would have gotten a promising rookie 2C, and another 1st rounder, I would have taken that for Schenn.

[TheJackBurton]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

if I had to guess, it was more TOR asking about Schenn than Army shopping him

again, just a guess

It was more than asking..they had a deal agreed upon.

I hadn't heard that.

I had heard that Army asked Schenn if he'd be willing to waive and he said yes if he would be united with his brother, otherwise he wasn't interested.

[a smell of green grass]

ASOGG, forget that article. It is total fluff. Go look at the stats instead. Ritchie had 15 goals in his D+2 year in junior as one of the older players in the league and his points per game were 15th in the league thanks entirely to high assist totals. Ritchie also had just 2 points for Canada in the WJC (along with a 14 PIM's for an undisciplined squad that got bounced early).

Go look at Dvo's junior stats from the year before as a D+1. Dvo is 5 months younger, so essentially put up those totals 17 months ahead of watch Ritchie just did. That is what a top prospect does in juniors.

That being said, Ritchie has some really good tools. If he puts it together, he could be something. But the odds of him becoming an "elite" 2nd line center at this point are not great. And not better than Otto becoming a really good 2nd liner himself.

Don't just take that article's word for it.

Interesting and valid points. Thank you for the reply. The stats are very relevant as you say.

I'm not really comparing him to DVO as much as Stenberg since he was taken a few picks ahead of him. Nevertheless, the info does provide more hope for our prospects too. Mostly I'm bugged that Armstrong feels like a 200 ft player is what we are shopping for, and then he didn't act like DVO and Stenberg are on even on the radar.

Thanks again.

IMO, with projected guys like Snuggy and Bolduc on the roster, I think Army was referring to an established (or near established) player that can make an immediate impact like Holloway did. Dvo and Stenberg are not yet that. Neither is Ritchie. If you could get someone (at center) like Nelson, that would fit what Army is referencing here in the short term.

I understand what you are saying, but really what do we have to lose? The 2nd line was nearly invisible in the playoffs. I'd rather sink or swim with the younger players.

[a smell of green grass]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

if I had to guess, it was more TOR asking about Schenn than Army shopping him

again, just a guess

It was more than asking..they had a deal agreed upon.

I hadn't heard that.

I had heard that Army asked Schenn if he'd be willing to waive and he said yes if he would be united with his brother, otherwise he wasn't interested.

I think that this sequence events is another reason that points to Schenn leaving. That had to be upsetting to Schenn to hear that Army was willing to trade him, the Captain, despite the no-trade clause, and despite that they were still in the hunt for the playoffs. That was a no-confidence move to say the least.

[DawgDad]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

if I had to guess, it was more TOR asking about Schenn than Army shopping him

again, just a guess

It was more than asking..they had a deal agreed upon.

I hadn't heard that.

I had heard that Army asked Schenn if he'd be willing to waive and he said yes if he would be united with his brother, otherwise he wasn't interested.

Sometimes the best deals are the ones that you don't make. If Providence played a hand it worked out fine for the Blues and Schenn. The GM should not divulge details of what was discussed while the players are active.

[STL fan in MN]

Ritchie is a really good player. I’m still shocked the Av’s gave him up but they truly believed they had a shot at the Cup. Pretty good trade for the Islanders

Armstrong wanted to trade Schenn at the trade deadline. Do you think that that Avs tried to get Schenn first, over Nelson?

I see that the Avs are trying to sign Nelson longer-term now.

No…pretty sure Army was discussing Schenn with Toronto.

if I had to guess, it was more TOR asking about Schenn than Army shopping him

again, just a guess

It was more than asking..they had a deal agreed upon.

I hadn't heard that.

I had heard that Army asked Schenn if he'd be willing to waive and he said yes if he would be united with his brother, otherwise he wasn't interested.

That’s more my understanding as well. But in the end, we don’t really know.

And I doubt Toronto would’ve been willing to trade Easton Cowen (their top prospect, plays for London who will be playing for the Memorial Cup crown tomorrow) for a rental. And no, they wouldn’t have traded Knies either. They apparently could’ve gotten Rantanen for Knies and (rightly) said no (unless Rants came with an extension).

I will maintain that Colorado was beyond stupid to trade Ritchie and a 1st for a rental. It’ll go down as just as bad as when the Caps traded Filip Forsberg to the Preds for a rental Martin Erat…which ultimately is what mostly got their GM fired. Pretty much any talking head that knows prospects instantly lambasted the trade and Avs fans were and still are (upset) about it. So no, if/when Army trades Schenn or any other player like that, he almost certainly won’t get the equivalent of Ritchie and a 1st. It took a spectacularly bad level of desperation and lack of foresight for the Avs to make such a bad trade. A prospect trade that lopsided happens maybe every 10-20 years so it’s be silly to hold Army to expecting that type of return (so of course that’s precisely what green grass will do).

[a smell of green grass]

So no, if/when Army trades Schenn or any other player like that, he almost certainly won’t get the equivalent of Ritchie and a 1st. It took a spectacularly bad level of desperation and lack of foresight for the Avs to make such a bad trade. A prospect trade that lopsided happens maybe every 10-20 years so it’s be silly to hold Army to expecting that type of return (so of course that’s precisely what green grass will do).

I see this trade as spectularly bad too and one that will bite Colorado fans for a long time. Especially for Brock Nelson! Who would even want a forward from the Islanders?

I would not blame Army if he couldn't get the same deal for Schenn. I was merely hoping that he could.

That said, I have not been impressed with what Army has gotten earlier for our veterans. It seems like our biggest return for the veterans is removing the salary from the books.

[STL fan in MN]

So no, if/when Army trades Schenn or any other player like that, he almost certainly won’t get the equivalent of Ritchie and a 1st. It took a spectacularly bad level of desperation and lack of foresight for the Avs to make such a bad trade. A prospect trade that lopsided happens maybe every 10-20 years so it’s be silly to hold Army to expecting that type of return (so of course that’s precisely what green grass will do).

I see this trade as spectularly bad too and one that will bite Colorado fans for a long time. Especially for Brock Nelson! Who would even want a forward from the Islanders?

I would not blame Army if he couldn't get the same deal for Schenn. I was merely hoping that he could.

That said, I have not been impressed with what Army has gotten earlier for our veterans. It seems like our biggest return for the veterans is removing the salary from the books.

Glad you’re being reasonable.

To me, Army got the going rates for ROR and Tarasenko - a 1st as the main return piece. Stenberg and Lindstein are are now 2 of our top 4-5 prospects. What more would you expect?

And tbh, I didn’t think Tarasenko was worth a 1st at the time and we were lucky to get that. Likely why he had to include Mikkola to get the Rangers’ 1st. To me, it was clear the wheels were about to fall off Tarasenko as he was declining hard. His goals for %, Corsi and Fenwick were all hovering around 45% that year (meaning the Blues were getting outscored and outchaned 45 to 55% whenever Tarasenko was on the ice). I was pretty ecstatic to get a 1st for him tbh.

And overall, I think buying at the deadline and paying a 1st for a rental is almost always a bad idea. That’s the going rate but late 1sts still turn into quality NHLers over 50% of the time and for what? To add one guy at the end to try to win the Cup and then almost certainly lose that player for nothing as a UFA a few months later? About 7-10 teams tend to do it each year but only one of them can win the Cup.

I’m ok with doing it every once in a while and it can make more sense to trade a 1st for a player with term (like the Blues traded away a 1st along with Thompson for O’Reilly) but for a rental? No.

So yeah, I’m more than happy with how those 2 trades worked out. Kids are drafted at age 17-18 though so when the main return is draft picks, it’s going to take a while to see dividends on the trade. That’s just how it is.