It's Time, Oli - Swap Herrera and Arenado

[Shady]

So basically we would have no run producers after the 5th spot. Bad idea.

So it’s better to have the less run producer batting clean up so you have the better run producers getting fewer at bats at 5th and 6th? That’s a worse idea and makes zero sense. Let’s give the worst hitter more at bats so the better hitters get fewer at bats lol

Amazing rationale hitting a less capable hitter cleanup.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

So basically we would have no run producers after the 5th spot. Bad idea.

Not saying that just because it's always been that way that it's right, but, yea, that's kinda the way lineups have always been constructed. You want your run producers in the 3, 4, 5 spots. Nowadays you might see them hitting 2nd as well, but you get the idea. Don't you want your best players getting more ABs? And the guys that don't hit that well are near the bottom of the order. But yea, Arenado isn't horrible, so he would make a good #6 hitter.

It just seems like common sense. Herrera and Arenado both have 18 RBI, only Herrera got his in 28 less games and 128 less PAs. I really don't think I'm saying anything controversial.

[ramfandan]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Yes, on superstitious but regarding the ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it ‘ .. last year can’t tell you how many times when Winn was surging and still batting 9th that I suggested hr should be moved up in order.
I got the same response..oh he is comfy at 9th so don’t move him. No
Pressure there just keep him there. Finally after Lord knows how long Winn was moved up.
Actually one could argue same thing happening with V. Scott..
Good avg. and top base stealer at 9th
Yes, Noot follows him in batting rotation but over course of 162 games , a team’s 9th batter gets over 100 less plate appearances than the No. 1,2, and 3 hitters in lineup. With 117 games remaining, Scott will get approximately 60- 65 LESS times at the plate.
Bet that means maybe 15 ? Or so less stolen bases and how many runs less ?
Can the Cards still win with Arenado at 4th and Scott buried at 9th? Sure. Buy one must also realize the Cards are sacrificing runs by doing so.

[hullie]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Yes, on superstitious but regarding the ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it ‘ .. last year can’t tell you how many times when Winn was surging and still batting 9th that I suggested hr should be moved up in order.
I got the same response..oh he is comfy at 9th so don’t move him. No
Pressure there just keep him there. Finally after Lord knows how long Winn was moved up.
Actually one could argue same thing happening with V. Scott..
Good avg. and top base stealer at 9th
Yes, Noot follows him in batting rotation but over course of 162 games , a team’s 9th batter gets over 100 less plate appearances than the No. 1,2, and 3 hitters in lineup. With 117 games remaining, Scott will get approximately 60- 65 LESS times at the plate.
Bet that means maybe 15 ? Or so less stolen bases and how many runs less ?
Can the Cards still win with Arenado at 4th and Scott buried at 9th? Sure. Buy one must also realize the Cards are sacrificing runs by doing so.

Can’t argue with you about Scott. That guy looks like the perfect leadoff hitter to me too. I would imagine he will be in the near future depending on how the rest of this year goes. I could see him leading off next year.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Tip of the cap to you, Oli, for getting it done.


(I know he's batting 5th and Contreras 4th, but still).

[thetank2]

The number of runners on base in front of him will be basically the same.

[3dender]

Tip of the cap to you, Oli, for getting it done.


(I know he's batting 5th and Contreras 4th, but still).

Fully expected it to take until at least June, so major props to him. Dare we believe he is improving?

[Ozziesfan41]

Tip of the cap to you, Oli, for getting it done.


(I know he's batting 5th and Contreras 4th, but still).

Fully expected it to take until at least June, so major props to him. Dare we believe he is improving?

It took a season and some change but he finally got
There

Edit apparently Arenado was the smart one and requested to be moved and oli is just as dumb as always

[hullie]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Bump. Very weird minds. Now IH is struggling.

[Ozziesfan41]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Bump. Very weird minds. Now IH is struggling.

Yea baseball is crazy every hitter slumps. He wasnt going to continue to hit .400 if he kept batting sixth its crazy to think he would have he would be slumping just like now and will come out of it just like he will lol

[Melville]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Yes, on superstitious but regarding the ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it ‘ .. last year can’t tell you how many times when Winn was surging and still batting 9th that I suggested hr should be moved up in order.
I got the same response..oh he is comfy at 9th so don’t move him. No
Pressure there just keep him there. Finally after Lord knows how long Winn was moved up.
Actually one could argue same thing happening with V. Scott..
Good avg. and top base stealer at 9th
Yes, Noot follows him in batting rotation but over course of 162 games , a team’s 9th batter gets over 100 less plate appearances than the No. 1,2, and 3 hitters in lineup. With 117 games remaining, Scott will get approximately 60- 65 LESS times at the plate.
Bet that means maybe 15 ? Or so less stolen bases and how many runs less ?
Can the Cards still win with Arenado at 4th and Scott buried at 9th? Sure. Buy one must also realize the Cards are sacrificing runs by doing so.

Can’t argue with you about Scott. That guy looks like the perfect leadoff hitter to me too. I would imagine he will be in the near future depending on how the rest of this year goes. I could see him leading off next year.

As I correctly analyzed and advised before the season began, Scott should be leading off right now.
Data proves it.
The team in 27th in MLB in scoring 1st inning runs.
The top 10 teams, on average, score twice as many 1st inning runs as STL does.
Makes zero sense to have the base clogging Mootbaar leading off.
Scott should hit #1, in front of Winn - putting 2 race horses at the top in front of RBI bats.
Mootbaar fits best at 9 - as I alone explained with perfection before the season began.
Data says I was right all along.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

The point of this thread isn't that Nolan slumping so move him down in the order. The point is that this is who Nolan is right now. He's been trending this way for a few years. He is just not the three or four hitter right now. I'm not saying anything crazy or controversial, Nolan himself went to the manager and asked to be moved down in the order. I wonder why he did that?

No, Herrera is not hitting .400 anymore. No one expected him to. Who do you expect to be a more productive hitter this year? I would assume it's going to be Herrera, wouldn't you? If that's the case, don't you want your more productive hitters hitting in the middle of the lineup?

And yes, they will slump. Which is why you're really not hearing anyone currently talking about moving Contreras out of his spot. People realize that you still has the capability of being a middle of the order bat and that, while he is slumping right now, he still belongs where he is.

[renostl]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Yes, on superstitious but regarding the ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it ‘ .. last year can’t tell you how many times when Winn was surging and still batting 9th that I suggested hr should be moved up in order.
I got the same response..oh he is comfy at 9th so don’t move him. No
Pressure there just keep him there. Finally after Lord knows how long Winn was moved up.
Actually one could argue same thing happening with V. Scott..
Good avg. and top base stealer at 9th
Yes, Noot follows him in batting rotation but over course of 162 games , a team’s 9th batter gets over 100 less plate appearances than the No. 1,2, and 3 hitters in lineup. With 117 games remaining, Scott will get approximately 60- 65 LESS times at the plate.
Bet that means maybe 15 ? Or so less stolen bases and how many runs less ?
Can the Cards still win with Arenado at 4th and Scott buried at 9th? Sure. Buy one must also realize the Cards are sacrificing runs by doing so.

Can’t argue with you about Scott. That guy looks like the perfect leadoff hitter to me too. I would imagine he will be in the near future depending on how the rest of this year goes. I could see him leading off next year.

As I correctly analyzed and advised before the season began, Scott should be leading off right now.
Data proves it.
The team in 27th in MLB in scoring 1st inning runs.
The top 10 teams, on average, score twice as many 1st inning runs as STL does.
Makes zero sense to have the base clogging Mootbaar leading off.
Scott should hit #1, in front of Winn - putting 2 race horses at the top in front of RBI bats.
Mootbaar fits best at 9 - as I alone explained with perfection before the season began.
Data says I was right all along.

VS2 has a .296 OBP over the last 28 days. .200 over the last 7 days
I think VS2 can stay at #9 for now.

The lack of SLG near the top is having as much of an effect as the lack of a running game.

There's reason that the team was trying to force Winn in that #1 spot and maybe they revisit
it. Or Donovan there IF they aren't going to run much anyway.

Moving Noot is OK but when it's done more OBP helps more than less. Then get the XBH a spot closer to the top. It is not much
of a running team anyway. That's exacerbated without XBH. I could see Noot in between some of the RHB of WC, IH, and NA
maybe #5 instead of the often-used Burleson there.

MW, BD, IH, WC, LN, NA might help those first inning short comings. That and to date the top 1-4
has had under performance or injuries in it. Donovan being the only constant as LN's OBP is .314 the last 28 days.

[Futuregm2]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Yes, on superstitious but regarding the ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it ‘ .. last year can’t tell you how many times when Winn was surging and still batting 9th that I suggested hr should be moved up in order.
I got the same response..oh he is comfy at 9th so don’t move him. No
Pressure there just keep him there. Finally after Lord knows how long Winn was moved up.
Actually one could argue same thing happening with V. Scott..
Good avg. and top base stealer at 9th
Yes, Noot follows him in batting rotation but over course of 162 games , a team’s 9th batter gets over 100 less plate appearances than the No. 1,2, and 3 hitters in lineup. With 117 games remaining, Scott will get approximately 60- 65 LESS times at the plate.
Bet that means maybe 15 ? Or so less stolen bases and how many runs less ?
Can the Cards still win with Arenado at 4th and Scott buried at 9th? Sure. Buy one must also realize the Cards are sacrificing runs by doing so.

Can’t argue with you about Scott. That guy looks like the perfect leadoff hitter to me too. I would imagine he will be in the near future depending on how the rest of this year goes. I could see him leading off next year.

As I correctly analyzed and advised before the season began, Scott should be leading off right now.
Data proves it.
The team in 27th in MLB in scoring 1st inning runs.
The top 10 teams, on average, score twice as many 1st inning runs as STL does.
Makes zero sense to have the base clogging Mootbaar leading off.
Scott should hit #1, in front of Winn - putting 2 race horses at the top in front of RBI bats.
Mootbaar fits best at 9 - as I alone explained with perfection before the season began.
Data says I was right all along.

We are 27th in MLB in scoring 1st inning runs because we don’t hit HRs. Nootbaar leads our team with 8 HRs to this point. And he ranks tied for 66th right now in baseball in HRs.

Our club leading 8 HRs is tied with Colorado, Toronto, KC, and the White Sox for the lowest team leading HR total in baseball. Our middle of the order hitters are in the 6 range. Or worse. That is a BIG problem for the team. And has been for the past couple years at least.

[renostl]

I object. No I strenuously object. If they were losing I would say of course. Baseball players minds are very weird. Very superstitious people. It ain’t broke no need to fix it. Let it ride.

Yes, on superstitious but regarding the ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it ‘ .. last year can’t tell you how many times when Winn was surging and still batting 9th that I suggested hr should be moved up in order.
I got the same response..oh he is comfy at 9th so don’t move him. No
Pressure there just keep him there. Finally after Lord knows how long Winn was moved up.
Actually one could argue same thing happening with V. Scott..
Good avg. and top base stealer at 9th
Yes, Noot follows him in batting rotation but over course of 162 games , a team’s 9th batter gets over 100 less plate appearances than the No. 1,2, and 3 hitters in lineup. With 117 games remaining, Scott will get approximately 60- 65 LESS times at the plate.
Bet that means maybe 15 ? Or so less stolen bases and how many runs less ?
Can the Cards still win with Arenado at 4th and Scott buried at 9th? Sure. Buy one must also realize the Cards are sacrificing runs by doing so.

Can’t argue with you about Scott. That guy looks like the perfect leadoff hitter to me too. I would imagine he will be in the near future depending on how the rest of this year goes. I could see him leading off next year.

As I correctly analyzed and advised before the season began, Scott should be leading off right now.
Data proves it.
The team in 27th in MLB in scoring 1st inning runs.
The top 10 teams, on average, score twice as many 1st inning runs as STL does.
Makes zero sense to have the base clogging Mootbaar leading off.
Scott should hit #1, in front of Winn - putting 2 race horses at the top in front of RBI bats.
Mootbaar fits best at 9 - as I alone explained with perfection before the season began.
Data says I was right all along.

We are 27th in MLB in scoring 1st inning runs because we don’t hit HRs. Nootbaar leads our team with 8 HRs to this point. And he ranks tied for 66th right now in baseball in HRs.

Our club leading 8 HRs is the tied with Colorado, Toronto, KC, and the White Sox for the lowest team leading HR total in baseball. And those teams have multiple players at 8, while for us it would take a player having a multi HR game for them to tie Nootbaar.

Even with most things clicking the lineup lacks SLG. Herrera with the same PA's as LN
would challenge for the HR lead. IMO, VS2 as a second LO at #9 should stay there. Get what
little SLG the team has as close to the OBP as possible. They finally got NA further out
now move the potential XBH behind the OBP.
The team is challenged in putting up a lineup that sustains for long. Changes with the wind a bit.
No clear-cut LO guy or #3/#4 over the next. Plenty of #7 or #8.

[Futuregm2]

Also making it out to be Noot’s fault that we aren’t scoring runs in the 1st inning is silly.

He’s hitting .302/.464/.512 in the 1st inning while the team as a whole in the inning is hitting .233/.311/.329.

Noot has half of the Cardinals 1st inning HRs (2 of 4) and 1/3rd of our doubles (3 of 9). And more than half of the walks (13 of 24). While also only having 1/6.5th of the K’s (6 of 40).

Donovan on the other hand is hitting .244/.320/.289 in the 1st inning with 3 RBI and 1 run in 50 PAs.

Winn is also not doing well at .231/.286/.346 with 2 RBI and 4 runs in 28 PAs.