Fools Gold - Stay The Course

[sikeston bulldog2]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

You couldn’t ask for anything from this roster. They have done fine, to be elite, it’s gonna take more.

I see one of Walker and/ or Gorman gone by next season.

[ecleme22]

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

Let’s assume the Cardinals are doing as well as you say come the trade deadline. Query: is your position that they hold onto the 4 pitchers who will be lost in free agency and get nothing back for them (since we know they’re not going to offer Matz, Miko, Fedde or Helsley a $20M+ QO)? And you’re highly overpaying Arenado for his production, so if there’s someone desperate for him, you’d hang on to him?
Note: I think that’s foolish.

Let's say you can get Arenado for a decent reliever? That's a decent trade that frees up money in 2026 and 2027, while improving the team in 2025. But let's say Arenado has an .830 OPS at the deadline. Maybe hold onto him, then trade him in the offseason...

With Fedde and/or Helsley, maybe you all out sell one of them for a future prospect, while dealing the other for MLB talent.

Unlike what Basil implied, it doesn't have to be a binary choice where you BUY or SELL!

Lastly, I would listen to Miko and Matz offers, but not sure if the return is worth it. Could be wrong.

[renostl]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

It might be the wording.
You called a second place team with a 24-20 record fools gold.

My interpretation is that they're not a .500 team. They're less.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

Let’s assume the Cardinals are doing as well as you say come the trade deadline. Query: is your position that they hold onto the 4 pitchers who will be lost in free agency and get nothing back for them (since we know they’re not going to offer Matz, Miko, Fedde or Helsley a $20M+ QO)? And you’re highly overpaying Arenado for his production, so if there’s someone desperate for him, you’d hang on to him?
Note: I think that’s foolish.

Let's say you can get Arenado for a decent reliever? That's a decent trade that frees up money in 2026 and 2027, while improving the team in 2025. But let's say Arenado has an .830 OPS at the deadline. Maybe hold onto him, then trade him in the offseason...

With Fedde and/or Helsley, maybe you all out sell one of them for a future prospect, while dealing the other for MLB talent.

Unlike what Basil implied, it doesn't have to be a binary choice where you BUY or SELL!

Lastly, I would listen to Miko and Matz offers, but not sure if the return is worth it. Could be wrong.

If, at any point for the remainder of Arenado's contract he is carrying an .830 OPS, that seems like the ideal time to trade him. He hasn't seen that for a while, and chances are, he never will again.

[renostl]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

You couldn’t ask for anything from this roster. They have done fine, to be elite, it’s gonna take more.

I see one of Walker and/ or Gorman gone by next season.

Maybe so but they really don't have to.
IF Walker is nothing more than a 4th OFer, say Barrero there. Is it worth $150K to see progress on one
over the other? NG in nothing more than a backup at 2B/3B and DH.

They need to show much better we all agree. But if they show progress what do they have to put up
if their roles are adjusted appropriately?

[Basil Shabazz]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

It might be the wording.
You called a second place team with a 24-20 record fools gold.

My interpretation is that they're not a .500 team. They're less.

I literally said in my OP that I see this as an 81-84 win team.

[Basil Shabazz]

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

Let’s assume the Cardinals are doing as well as you say come the trade deadline. Query: is your position that they hold onto the 4 pitchers who will be lost in free agency and get nothing back for them (since we know they’re not going to offer Matz, Miko, Fedde or Helsley a $20M+ QO)? And you’re highly overpaying Arenado for his production, so if there’s someone desperate for him, you’d hang on to him?
Note: I think that’s foolish.

Let's say you can get Arenado for a decent reliever? That's a decent trade that frees up money in 2026 and 2027, while improving the team in 2025. But let's say Arenado has an .830 OPS at the deadline. Maybe hold onto him, then trade him in the offseason...

With Fedde and/or Helsley, maybe you all out sell one of them for a future prospect, while dealing the other for MLB talent.

Unlike what Basil implied, it doesn't have to be a binary choice where you BUY or SELL!

Lastly, I would listen to Miko and Matz offers, but not sure if the return is worth it. Could be wrong.

By not having a plan and executing said plan is how you remain stuck in mediocrity. I know it is hard for you to take a definitive stance, as you are scared to death of potentially being wrong, but sometimes you should try it.

Also, I referenced the players that I would try and trade. By no means do I think you can deal all of them for positive returns. But, those options should be on the table and properly explored.

[renostl]

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

Let’s assume the Cardinals are doing as well as you say come the trade deadline. Query: is your position that they hold onto the 4 pitchers who will be lost in free agency and get nothing back for them (since we know they’re not going to offer Matz, Miko, Fedde or Helsley a $20M+ QO)? And you’re highly overpaying Arenado for his production, so if there’s someone desperate for him, you’d hang on to him?
Note: I think that’s foolish.

The question has so many viewpoints.
What is winning? WS or bust? only 11 in 140 years. Playoffs 32 times.

What is the expected return on each? Top 5-10 or 20 teams prospect?
Is a playoff team and the revenue that gets generated during that and possibly into 2026
worth a couple/few prospects in the 10-15 range? This team needs fans in the seats, excitement
however small, much better than apathetic interest.

Could they use Fedde beyond 2025?

Veteran contracts do this. NA being over paid is different than him not being productive. Doing exactly what he is doing is productive for the team.
Sonny Gray will most assuredly be over paid in 2026. Does it matter on a team that's $50 million under it's payroll peaks or does it matter that
he is productive say an overpaid #3?

I don't have to agree with the FO approach. Just acknowledging's the position.

[renostl]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

It might be the wording.
You called a second place team with a 24-20 record fools gold.

My interpretation is that they're not a .500 team. They're less.

I literally said in my OP that I see this as an 81-84 win team.

I read that too. I wondered why having a team that's playing 2%-3% points higher than
someone's prediction would earn a fools gold label.

If they beat your prediction by 4 games they're fool gold?

[Basil Shabazz]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

It might be the wording.
You called a second place team with a 24-20 record fools gold.

My interpretation is that they're not a .500 team. They're less.

I literally said in my OP that I see this as an 81-84 win team.

I read that too. I wondered why having a team that's playing 2%-3% points higher than
someone's prediction would earn a fools gold label.

If they beat your prediction by 4 games they're fool gold?

Sorry that the term "Fools Gold" is so impactful to you. My reference of "Fools Gold" is meant to be that they are not a contending team as they are showing now, rather a .500ish type team that is currently over performing. So much verbiage at your disposal to determine what I am saying, but you are caught up on the headline.

Sorry for distracting you with the headline.

[renostl]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

It might be the wording.
You called a second place team with a 24-20 record fools gold.

My interpretation is that they're not a .500 team. They're less.

I literally said in my OP that I see this as an 81-84 win team.

I read that too. I wondered why having a team that's playing 2%-3% points higher than
someone's prediction would earn a fools gold label.

If they beat your prediction by 4 games they're fool gold?

Sorry that the term "Fools Gold" is so impactful to you. My reference of "Fools Gold" is meant to be that they are not a contending team as they are showing now, rather a .500ish type team that is currently over performing. So much verbiage at your disposal to determine what I am saying, but you are caught up on the headline.

Sorry for distracting you with the headline.

Basil, I like and read most your posts.

You have several words also at your disposal. I'm not at all impacted.
Why keep making personal swipes? did I attack you or the wording?

[ecleme22]

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

Let’s assume the Cardinals are doing as well as you say come the trade deadline. Query: is your position that they hold onto the 4 pitchers who will be lost in free agency and get nothing back for them (since we know they’re not going to offer Matz, Miko, Fedde or Helsley a $20M+ QO)? And you’re highly overpaying Arenado for his production, so if there’s someone desperate for him, you’d hang on to him?
Note: I think that’s foolish.

Let's say you can get Arenado for a decent reliever? That's a decent trade that frees up money in 2026 and 2027, while improving the team in 2025. But let's say Arenado has an .830 OPS at the deadline. Maybe hold onto him, then trade him in the offseason...

With Fedde and/or Helsley, maybe you all out sell one of them for a future prospect, while dealing the other for MLB talent.

Unlike what Basil implied, it doesn't have to be a binary choice where you BUY or SELL!

Lastly, I would listen to Miko and Matz offers, but not sure if the return is worth it. Could be wrong.

By not having a plan and executing said plan is how you remain stuck in mediocrity. I know it is hard for you to take a definitive stance, as you are scared to death of potentially being wrong, but sometimes you should try it.

Also, I referenced the players that I would try and trade. By no means do I think you can deal all of them for positive returns. But, those options should be on the table and properly explored.

See the bold ^^^ I totally agree. But what's the plan? It can't just be sell sell sell. Is that really a plan? They are investing in the farm system coaching. They are investing in scouting. I think you will see them better in who they choose in FA or via offseason trade. They will be smarter. And I think too they can be smarter in midseason trades. There are 'plans' in place that go beyond getting a prospect for Helsley.

About not being definitive: see my hypotheticals, I made definitive stances. 8 under .500 in late July? SELL. 12 games over? Modestly buy or stand pat. No, as you imagine, I'm not taking a 'definitive stance' on a 162 game season on May 16th...

Lastly, this is an interesting team. They're not top-heavy like the 2022 team. They're pretty deep and strong. And that's with McGreevy and Saggese in AAA. If they had one more good reliever, they'd have one of the best records in the MLB.

[BrummerStealsHome]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

My pre-season prediction on this board was 86 wins. I'll stick with that. I think this a good team which should finish a few games over .500. I don't think this is a playoff team, thus my expectations for this season are tempered from the start. That way I can enjoy the Cardinals by watching new young players play, grow, and establish themselves as major league ballplayers, or as trivia questions a few years down the road. There are more winning streaks ahead and some losing streaks, too. Like you said, playoff hopes are fools gold. It is wise to stay out of that trap and just enjoy this transitional season.

[Basil Shabazz]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

It might be the wording.
You called a second place team with a 24-20 record fools gold.

My interpretation is that they're not a .500 team. They're less.

I literally said in my OP that I see this as an 81-84 win team.

I read that too. I wondered why having a team that's playing 2%-3% points higher than
someone's prediction would earn a fools gold label.

If they beat your prediction by 4 games they're fool gold?

Sorry that the term "Fools Gold" is so impactful to you. My reference of "Fools Gold" is meant to be that they are not a contending team as they are showing now, rather a .500ish type team that is currently over performing. So much verbiage at your disposal to determine what I am saying, but you are caught up on the headline.

Sorry for distracting you with the headline.

Basil, I like and read most your posts.

You have several words also at your disposal. I'm not at all impacted.
Why keep making personal swipes? did I attack you or the wording?

Didn't intend anything to be personal. Sorry if you took it that way. I enjoy your post as well.

[RunSup]

Buy in to this team now and enjoy the ride.

They aren't selling meme coins here. It's just competitive baseball and fun at the old ball park.

[scoutyjones2]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

I agree. I say (likely too often) that, if you're not going to win the World Series in any given year, have a plan for the next few years where that is the sole objective. I like the team this year, but it's not going to go far, so they need to reset with winning a WS is the goal. I don't get people who think a Wild Card is that rewarding -- or memorable.

LMAO. So you can plan when to win a WS?!!!