Fools Gold - Stay The Course

[AtillaTheBlue1]

You’re fun.

ur a d-bag, so?

[Basil Shabazz]

In closing, I love watching this team win, play exciting baseball, and have fun doing it. My previous comments were simply me being a realist—I just don’t believe this team is quite there yet. They have some tradeable assets that could help build a stronger future. The ultimate goal should be creating a sustainable contender—one that competes for World Series titles year after year.

The young core is starting to take shape, and there's even more talent in the system coming up behind them.

That said, I don’t think the team needs to hang on to guys like Nolan Arenado, Ryan Helsley, Steven Matz, Erick Fedde, and Miles Mikolas. They aren’t likely to be part of the long-term core, they carry larger contracts, and they could bring value back in trades—especially if packaged with players like Burleson or even Nootbaar.

This isn’t me raining on anyone’s parade or questioning my loyalty as a Cardinals fan. I’m just being honest with myself—we’re not quite there yet, even with this recent surge. That said, we’re a lot closer than I thought we’d be just a few months ago.

Players like Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman could solve a lot of problems. Drafting a middle-of-the-order bat like LaViolette from Texas A&M could also make a difference. Add a key free agent arm like Framber Valdez, Dylan Cease, or Zac Gallen, and combine that with internal reinforcements like JJW, Graceffo, Crooks, and McGreevy—and this team could be well on its way.

[renostl]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

We Agree.

I don't see upside in the creation of new needs. There's some solid at some positions on this team,
There are also some placeholders,

[Cranny]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

We Agree.

I don't see upside in the creation of new needs. There's some solid at some positions on this team,
There are also some placeholders,

Interesting. Who are the solid ones and who are the placeholders in your opinion?

[OldRed]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

We Agree.

I don't see upside in the creation of new needs. There's some solid at some positions on this team,
There are also some placeholders,

Not much at this time from Arenado or Contreras.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

We Agree.

I don't see upside in the creation of new needs. There's some solid at some positions on this team,
There are also some placeholders,

Interesting. Who are the solid ones and who are the placeholders in your opinion?

Let’s look at 67 and 68. As an example of placeholders on WS teams. Who would the placeholders?

Maxvill
Javier
McCarver
Shannon

My point. All teams have placeholders. It’s a must. The trick is them performing to their offensive ability while providing stellar defense.

So I’d say all teams have them and many are defensive first players.

[ecleme22]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

We Agree.

I don't see upside in the creation of new needs. There's some solid at some positions on this team,
There are also some placeholders,

Not much at this time from Arenado or Contreras.

WC has a 1.021 ops his last 28 games.

[renostl]

In closing, I love watching this team win, play exciting baseball, and have fun doing it. My previous comments were simply me being a realist—I just don’t believe this team is quite there yet. They have some tradeable assets that could help build a stronger future. The ultimate goal should be creating a sustainable contender—one that competes for World Series titles year after year.

The young core is starting to take shape, and there's even more talent in the system coming up behind them.

That said, I don’t think the team needs to hang on to guys like Nolan Arenado, Ryan Helsley, Steven Matz, Erick Fedde, and Miles Mikolas. They aren’t likely to be part of the long-term core, they carry larger contracts, and they could bring value back in trades—especially if packaged with players like Burleson or even Nootbaar.

This isn’t me raining on anyone’s parade or questioning my loyalty as a Cardinals fan. I’m just being honest with myself—we’re not quite there yet, even with this recent surge. That said, we’re a lot closer than I thought we’d be just a few months ago.

Players like Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman could solve a lot of problems. Drafting a middle-of-the-order bat like LaViolette from Texas A&M could also make a difference. Add a key free agent arm like Framber Valdez, Dylan Cease, or Zac Gallen, and combine that with internal reinforcements like JJW, Graceffo, Crooks, and McGreevy—and this team could be well on its way.

No issue with having different views.
Of the group bolded they have various returns if traded. IMO,MM, NA=little to nothing, RH and SM prospects with some upside
Fedde, I'm honestly on the fence with. Does Sonny get dealt? I haven't the information to know what he will cost vs what he brings back.
Then there's the whole issues of IF the Cardinals are having a good record near the TD. They won't sell if they
are playing well and people are in the stands. Where most will say that is a missed opportunity, It's not horrible to see that
much money drop off, Excitement around the team would be huge and improve revenue versus a maybe 1 0r 2 prospects with
decent not great upside.

[Futuregm2]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

We Agree.

I don't see upside in the creation of new needs. There's some solid at some positions on this team,
There are also some placeholders,

Not much at this time from Arenado or Contreras.

What? Contreras has been one of our best hitters lately. He has a 1.057 OPS in May. And had a .986 OPS over his last 12 games of April.

[renostl]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

We Agree.

I don't see upside in the creation of new needs. There's some solid at some positions on this team,
There are also some placeholders,

Interesting. Who are the solid ones and who are the placeholders in your opinion?

Below Sikeston showed the example of the value of non star players. 2006, 2011 had them too.
I probably see his list slightly different, doesn't matter.

In general a player that won't be back or they are looking to upgrade is a placeholder.

Winn, Scott, Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Libs, are some of the current and future solid. They could be moved but
the return should bring something just as solid.
Arenado, Contreras, Gray are a little of both. On the team with production and contract for a couple more.

Short and incomplete.

[ecleme22]

In closing, I love watching this team win, play exciting baseball, and have fun doing it. My previous comments were simply me being a realist—I just don’t believe this team is quite there yet. They have some tradeable assets that could help build a stronger future. The ultimate goal should be creating a sustainable contender—one that competes for World Series titles year after year.

The young core is starting to take shape, and there's even more talent in the system coming up behind them.

That said, I don’t think the team needs to hang on to guys like Nolan Arenado, Ryan Helsley, Steven Matz, Erick Fedde, and Miles Mikolas. They aren’t likely to be part of the long-term core, they carry larger contracts, and they could bring value back in trades—especially if packaged with players like Burleson or even Nootbaar.

This isn’t me raining on anyone’s parade or questioning my loyalty as a Cardinals fan. I’m just being honest with myself—we’re not quite there yet, even with this recent surge. That said, we’re a lot closer than I thought we’d be just a few months ago.

Players like Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman could solve a lot of problems. Drafting a middle-of-the-order bat like LaViolette from Texas A&M could also make a difference. Add a key free agent arm like Framber Valdez, Dylan Cease, or Zac Gallen, and combine that with internal reinforcements like JJW, Graceffo, Crooks, and McGreevy—and this team could be well on its way.

No issue with having different views.
Of the group bolded they have various returns if traded. IMO,MM, NA=little to nothing, RH and SM prospects with some upside
Fedde, I'm honestly on the fence with. Does Sonny get dealt? I haven't the information to know what he will cost vs what he brings back.
Then there's the whole issues of IF the Cardinals are having a good record near the TD. They won't sell if they
are playing well and people are in the stands. Where most will say that is a missed opportunity, It's not horrible to see that
much money drop off, Excitement around the team would be huge and improve revenue versus a maybe 1 0r 2 prospects with
decent not great upside.

The team and organization, IMO, are in a really good spot. Their nucleus is young. Their money on the books is low. They have more prospects in the pipeline, and a draft is coming up.

OF COURSE if the Cards are 8 games under .500 on July 20th, you try and sell. But that's more than two months away.

If the team is 12 over? Maybe get a reliever. Maybe trade Fedde and Burleson for two relievers and bring up McGreevy.

There are so many possibilities that aren't "SELL SELL SELL. We need prospects! Stay the course! We must have a great team in 2029!"

The team can be creative and still compete.

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

[ClassicO]

In closing, I love watching this team win, play exciting baseball, and have fun doing it. My previous comments were simply me being a realist—I just don’t believe this team is quite there yet. They have some tradeable assets that could help build a stronger future. The ultimate goal should be creating a sustainable contender—one that competes for World Series titles year after year.

The young core is starting to take shape, and there's even more talent in the system coming up behind them.

That said, I don’t think the team needs to hang on to guys like Nolan Arenado, Ryan Helsley, Steven Matz, Erick Fedde, and Miles Mikolas. They aren’t likely to be part of the long-term core, they carry larger contracts, and they could bring value back in trades—especially if packaged with players like Burleson or even Nootbaar.

This isn’t me raining on anyone’s parade or questioning my loyalty as a Cardinals fan. I’m just being honest with myself—we’re not quite there yet, even with this recent surge. That said, we’re a lot closer than I thought we’d be just a few months ago.

Players like Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman could solve a lot of problems. Drafting a middle-of-the-order bat like LaViolette from Texas A&M could also make a difference. Add a key free agent arm like Framber Valdez, Dylan Cease, or Zac Gallen, and combine that with internal reinforcements like JJW, Graceffo, Crooks, and McGreevy—and this team could be well on its way.

Again, I agree with all of this.
The one area I stressed before where the Cardinals are lacking is in the international free agent market, where teams like the Astros and Dodgers have found incredible talent at low cost. This is the area where the Cards have to make a significant jump forward.

[renostl]

In closing, I love watching this team win, play exciting baseball, and have fun doing it. My previous comments were simply me being a realist—I just don’t believe this team is quite there yet. They have some tradeable assets that could help build a stronger future. The ultimate goal should be creating a sustainable contender—one that competes for World Series titles year after year.

The young core is starting to take shape, and there's even more talent in the system coming up behind them.

That said, I don’t think the team needs to hang on to guys like Nolan Arenado, Ryan Helsley, Steven Matz, Erick Fedde, and Miles Mikolas. They aren’t likely to be part of the long-term core, they carry larger contracts, and they could bring value back in trades—especially if packaged with players like Burleson or even Nootbaar.

This isn’t me raining on anyone’s parade or questioning my loyalty as a Cardinals fan. I’m just being honest with myself—we’re not quite there yet, even with this recent surge. That said, we’re a lot closer than I thought we’d be just a few months ago.

Players like Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman could solve a lot of problems. Drafting a middle-of-the-order bat like LaViolette from Texas A&M could also make a difference. Add a key free agent arm like Framber Valdez, Dylan Cease, or Zac Gallen, and combine that with internal reinforcements like JJW, Graceffo, Crooks, and McGreevy—and this team could be well on its way.

No issue with having different views.
Of the group bolded they have various returns if traded. IMO,MM, NA=little to nothing, RH and SM prospects with some upside
Fedde, I'm honestly on the fence with. Does Sonny get dealt? I haven't the information to know what he will cost vs what he brings back.
Then there's the whole issues of IF the Cardinals are having a good record near the TD. They won't sell if they
are playing well and people are in the stands. Where most will say that is a missed opportunity, It's not horrible to see that
much money drop off, Excitement around the team would be huge and improve revenue versus a maybe 1 0r 2 prospects with
decent not great upside.

The team and organization, IMO, are in a really good spot. Their nucleus is young. Their money on the books is low. They have more prospects in the pipeline, and a draft is coming up.

OF COURSE if the Cards are 8 games under .500 on July 20th, you try and sell. But that's more than two months away.

If the team is 12 over? Maybe get a reliever. Maybe trade Fedde and Burleson for two relievers and bring up McGreevy.

There are so many possibilities that aren't "SELL SELL SELL. We need prospects! Stay the course! We must have a great team in 2029!"

The team can be creative and still compete.

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

We see it similar.
I posted for a couple seasons that "they were not in terrible shape"

[Basil Shabazz]

Unlike you, I am not scared to take a stance and have an opinion. You have basically said the exact same things I have except you sit on the fence as normal.

Further, I never said they were in "terrible shape". Actually, I conveyed quite the opposite. The future is bright. For a long bright future though, it is important to make the right moves and evaluate your team and assets properly.

[ClassicO]

Fast forward to July 25th and the Cards 14 games over .500. Would love to get an update from Basil then...

Let’s assume the Cardinals are doing as well as you say come the trade deadline. Query: is your position that they hold onto the 4 pitchers who will be lost in free agency and get nothing back for them (since we know they’re not going to offer Matz, Miko, Fedde or Helsley a $20M+ QO)? And you’re highly overpaying Arenado for his production, so if there’s someone desperate for him, you’d hang on to him?
Note: I think that’s foolish.

[renostl]

In closing, I love watching this team win, play exciting baseball, and have fun doing it. My previous comments were simply me being a realist—I just don’t believe this team is quite there yet. They have some tradeable assets that could help build a stronger future. The ultimate goal should be creating a sustainable contender—one that competes for World Series titles year after year.

The young core is starting to take shape, and there's even more talent in the system coming up behind them.

That said, I don’t think the team needs to hang on to guys like Nolan Arenado, Ryan Helsley, Steven Matz, Erick Fedde, and Miles Mikolas. They aren’t likely to be part of the long-term core, they carry larger contracts, and they could bring value back in trades—especially if packaged with players like Burleson or even Nootbaar.

This isn’t me raining on anyone’s parade or questioning my loyalty as a Cardinals fan. I’m just being honest with myself—we’re not quite there yet, even with this recent surge. That said, we’re a lot closer than I thought we’d be just a few months ago.

Players like Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman could solve a lot of problems. Drafting a middle-of-the-order bat like LaViolette from Texas A&M could also make a difference. Add a key free agent arm like Framber Valdez, Dylan Cease, or Zac Gallen, and combine that with internal reinforcements like JJW, Graceffo, Crooks, and McGreevy—and this team could be well on its way.

Again, I agree with all of this.
The one area I stressed before where the Cardinals are lacking is in the international free agent market, where teams like the Astros and Dodgers have found incredible talent at low cost. This is the area where the Cards have to make a significant jump forward.

Not to take this all off subject, LAD might be in last place relying on home grown. Those teams supplement the roster
aggressively.