Fools Gold - Stay The Course

[Strummer Jones]

I know this is a bit of comparing apples to oranges, but, I don't think anyone thought the Cardinals would do anything in 2011, either, and look what happened. I definitely understand the position of continually trying to improve the club. However, trying to figure out what team is good enough to win it all is nothing but pure speculation, with evidence weighted in favor of certain clubs based on talent and current performance. It's true that there are many a (bleep) team that would not have a chance in hell to win the WS, but, the Cardinals have proven before that all they need is an average team with a lot of heart to win it all. And, honestly, I really don't see the lower spending Cardinals ever having much of an above average team, other than by sucking for a long time and hitting on high draft picks. Point being, even though I know it's a front office favorite saying that "all you have to do is get in", and, I know that they managed to mess that up lately, but, in the end, that may be our only route to the WS. I say as long as the Cardinals are still a winning team, and, are in the playoffs come the trade deadline, they should roll the dice with the squad they have(maybe plus a BP arm, and maybe minus one of Gorman, Walker or Burleson, or, whomever else can get a good BP arm), and let this club find it's own destiny.

A foundation of Pujols, Yadi, Berkman, Holliday, and Carp makes a difference in the expected outcome in my opinion. 2011 unit had real veteran leadership to steer the ship.

This version has Nado who doesn't want to lead.

The only real 2 foundational veteran leadership/performance pieces this team has is Gray and Contreras.

They have a healthy Nootbaar, a Donovan that looks a bit better than other years, an emerging star in Masyn Winn, just got back Ivan Herrera from the IL who has shown he can flat out hit, and a Matthew Liberatore that is breaking out finally and has outdueled two of the premier pitchers in baseball (Wheeler/Skenes). Will they maintain it? We'll find out. But the younger players are giving hope and a peak of what they are capable of.

I'd dangle out a starter and Gorman and maaaaaaaaaaybe a bit of our catching depth and see what that brings you. MAYBE Hels, but that could be a dangerous proposition.

[DewittDaman11]

I know this is a bit of comparing apples to oranges, but, I don't think anyone thought the Cardinals would do anything in 2011, either, and look what happened. I definitely understand the position of continually trying to improve the club. However, trying to figure out what team is good enough to win it all is nothing but pure speculation, with evidence weighted in favor of certain clubs based on talent and current performance. It's true that there are many a (bleep) team that would not have a chance in hell to win the WS, but, the Cardinals have proven before that all they need is an average team with a lot of heart to win it all. And, honestly, I really don't see the lower spending Cardinals ever having much of an above average team, other than by sucking for a long time and hitting on high draft picks. Point being, even though I know it's a front office favorite saying that "all you have to do is get in", and, I know that they managed to mess that up lately, but, in the end, that may be our only route to the WS. I say as long as the Cardinals are still a winning team, and, are in the playoffs come the trade deadline, they should roll the dice with the squad they have(maybe plus a BP arm, and maybe minus one of Gorman, Walker or Burleson, or, whomever else can get a good BP arm), and let this club find it's own destiny.

A foundation of Pujols, Yadi, Berkman, Holliday, and Carp makes a difference in the expected outcome in my opinion. 2011 unit had real veteran leadership to steer the ship.

This version has Nado who doesn't want to lead.

The only real 2 foundational veteran leadership/performance pieces this team has is Gray and Contreras.

That team did have better slugging talent than the current Cardinals, but, I really feel the edge the team played with was their best attribute. They just believed in themselves enough, and had enough talent. If the Cardinals could find a talented, once a generation, leader like Berkman to come play here cheap, I would be all for it. But, not sure St. Louis still has that baseball heaven drawing power that we had back then. Also, I can't see us spending for that kind of talent, and, even if we did, it might end up like the Goldy and Arenado situation, and the expensive contracts don't pan out.

I think the Cardinals really have to use their gut feelings about the team, and, if they think the team has a chance, they go for it by either staying pat, or, adding a piece that wouldn't harm their chemistry. I just think if the club is still playing the same quality of baseball they are playing right now come the trade deadline, this is a pretty darn good team. Maybe we can't say that at this point, but, if they keep it up.

[Basil Shabazz]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

When that big jump that you want to see happen occurs
do you expect them to jump from a 80 win team to a 95 win team?

There's little depth, why toss aside cost controlled with upside? What does Noot or Donovan
cost on the open market and at this time who are their replacements? Guys who are a part of the
starting 9, top of the lineup will need replaced and I don't readily see it. It's how teams stay in rebuild forever.

I think that I'm misunderstanding the position.

I wouldn't trade Donny, nor did I mention such. I would trade Burly as he is a slightly plus offensive bat without a defensive position. Noot would be valuable to a serious contender and would elicit a a decent return IMO.

[renostl]

I know this is a bit of comparing apples to oranges, but, I don't think anyone thought the Cardinals would do anything in 2011, either, and look what happened. I definitely understand the position of continually trying to improve the club. However, trying to figure out what team is good enough to win it all is nothing but pure speculation, with evidence weighted in favor of certain clubs based on talent and current performance. It's true that there are many a (bleep) team that would not have a chance in hell to win the WS, but, the Cardinals have proven before that all they need is an average team with a lot of heart to win it all. And, honestly, I really don't see the lower spending Cardinals ever having much of an above average team, other than by sucking for a long time and hitting on high draft picks. Point being, even though I know it's a front office favorite saying that "all you have to do is get in", and, I know that they managed to mess that up lately, but, in the end, that may be our only route to the WS. I say as long as the Cardinals are still a winning team, and, are in the playoffs come the trade deadline, they should roll the dice with the squad they have(maybe plus a BP arm, and maybe minus one of Gorman, Walker or Burleson, or, whomever else can get a good BP arm), and let this club find it's own destiny.

A foundation of Pujols, Yadi, Berkman, Holliday, and Carp makes a difference in the expected outcome in my opinion. 2011 unit had real veteran leadership to steer the ship.

This version has Nado who doesn't want to lead.

The only real 2 foundational veteran leadership/performance pieces this team has is Gray and Contreras.

That's fair.
What happens to your assessment of this team with a 2011 Pujols on it?

The semi point being is NA doesn't have to be something he isn't if a big dog is here. That you can't just be in
pause mode while waiting for that. The team MIGHT, go after a missing piece or two but in perpetual rebuild
probably not, too many needs. Having a 3B, SS, 2B, 1B, LF, and CF with a positive WAR is something to build
with. Hope, fool's gold if you want, but why would a outside player want to be a part of a less than that team?

[renostl]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

When that big jump that you want to see happen occurs
do you expect them to jump from a 80 win team to a 95 win team?

There's little depth, why toss aside cost controlled with upside? What does Noot or Donovan
cost on the open market and at this time who are their replacements? Guys who are a part of the
starting 9, top of the lineup will need replaced and I don't readily see it. It's how teams stay in rebuild forever.

I think that I'm misunderstanding the position.

I wouldn't trade Donny, nor did I mention such. I would trade Burly as he is a slightly plus offensive bat without a defensive position. Noot would be valuable to a serious contender and would elicit a a decent return IMO.

No you didn't. But why keep him in your scenario? he at least would bring back upside and does
have players behind him in JJ and Saggese?

Mikolas, Burley bring back very little

[ecleme22]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

[Basil Shabazz]

We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

That was never said, nor was it insinuated. Here you go again creating false narratives to try and make a point.

[renostl]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

[blackinkbiz]

We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

That was never said, nor was it insinuated. Here you go again creating false narratives to try and make a point.

It was very much so implied in this:

A foundation of Pujols, Yadi, Berkman, Holliday, and Carp makes a difference in the expected outcome in my opinion. 2011 unit had real veteran leadership to steer the ship.

This version has Nado who doesn't want to lead.

The only real 2 foundational veteran leadership/performance pieces this team has is Gray and Contreras.

Additonally, saying a line such as the following in such absolute terms just makes you a trollish idiot:

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

Last, I don't know why it is you imbeciles who either want to bring Cardinals' fans down or just prefer to wallow in misery don't realize it, but this year may have officially been labeled as the reset, but the Cards admitted to "retooling on the fly" starting on 2023. They've graduated players at every position since then and the majority of them are now coming into their own. This is actually the 3rd year of the retool on the fly, which is exactly how long the Blues took to become competitive. Different sports, almost identical situations.

So, keep hating everything, dipsh*t, but don't try to suck others into your misery. Cheers!

[Talkin' Baseball]

You’re fun.

He's also right.

[thetank2]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

They stay healthy their current Pythag has them at 92 wins. Think of us as the 1975 Red Sox with several rookies that are producing.

[ecleme22]

We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

That was never said, nor was it insinuated. Here you go again creating false narratives to try and make a point.

It was very much so implied in this:

A foundation of Pujols, Yadi, Berkman, Holliday, and Carp makes a difference in the expected outcome in my opinion. 2011 unit had real veteran leadership to steer the ship.

This version has Nado who doesn't want to lead.

The only real 2 foundational veteran leadership/performance pieces this team has is Gray and Contreras.

Additonally, saying a line such as the following in such absolute terms just makes you a trollish idiot:

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

Last, I don't know why it is you imbeciles who either want to bring Cardinals' fans down or just prefer to wallow in misery don't realize it, but this year may have officially been labeled as the reset, but the Cards admitted to "retooling on the fly" starting on 2023. They've graduated players at every position since then and the majority of them are now coming into their own. This is actually the 3rd year of the retool on the fly, which is exactly how long the Blues took to become competitive. Different sports, almost identical situations.

So, keep hating everything, dipsh*t, but don't try to suck others into your misery. Cheers!

Thank you.

Yes it was very much implied. Basil is so sensitive when responding to me.

[ecleme22]

Here's the thing about the 2025, so far: They are getting a lot of success from pretty much everyone not named Walker and Gorman. Which means potentially they are in a better place than we thought they would be.

So unlike the OP, no, I don't think you have to go in FULL SELL MODE still. Actually, you can sell some, while also adding some. Or just modestly add. As long as they don't trade really good prospects, why not see what happens?

And no, I don't believe this team lacks leadership as Basil said. We shouldn't have to wait until all our leaders have 7-10 years under their belt to be considered a playoff team...

It can easily be a strategy or philosophy to take an approach to gather more and more
youth. Teams do it for that reason as well as going cheap, so Basil has some common ground with that.

I just don't think it works very well. Baltimore amassed as much young talent as any team can hope for, KC for years,
Miami often, TB with some success but they dump every name player for even more prospects.
It's like they draft twice. Would Cardinal fans who attach to favorites support that? some would.

I actually believe this "reset" is over a season old and they are only a couple moves at most away from
NLC favorites which some belittle but you have to be that before you can be called more.

I think there can be a 'smart' trade. Like, trade Nado and replace him with Saggese. Then trade Burly for a middle reliever. Things like that. So you're trading players but also trading for players. As opposed to an all out firesale.

The team is playing really well. The team is very tight and full of energy. Also, AAA guys may also step up as the season progresses.

Unfair to call it 'fools gold yet.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I don't know about stay the course, but a Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman getting right and hitting at their potential is just as good as a trade for two great power hitters.

[desertrat23]

I am appreciative of the run this team is on and I enjoy winning baseball as much as anybody, but I still see this as an 81 to 84 win team.

I hope they continue with the retool/rebuild mindset and are actively shopping and listening to offers on Helsley, Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Burleson, and even Nootbaar. Between our young p-layers, the draft, next years free agency and the return on trades we can continue the retool/rebuild and begin competing w/ a legitimate shot of winning divisions and advancing further than a round in the playoffs. Keep using this year to see what you have or do not have in Gorman and Walker as well.

Don't buy into this team doing what they have done over the past month.

I agree. I say (likely too often) that, if you're not going to win the World Series in any given year, have a plan for the next few years where that is the sole objective. I like the team this year, but it's not going to go far, so they need to reset with winning a WS is the goal. I don't get people who think a Wild Card is that rewarding -- or memorable.

100%. But remember, you have non-competitive types around here who are satisfied with 82-80, as long as they get a bobblehead once in a while and are perceived as a "best fan in baseball."

2011 was a fluke, but unfortunately it's become the model. Build the strongest team you can (not just one good enough to get in), and THEN let the chips fall where they may. They're playing great baseball right now and it's fun to see, but I don't think this should drastically change the long-term plan, such as it is.

[dhsux]

I know this is a bit of comparing apples to oranges, but, I don't think anyone thought the Cardinals would do anything in 2011, either, and look what happened. I definitely understand the position of continually trying to improve the club. However, trying to figure out what team is good enough to win it all is nothing but pure speculation, with evidence weighted in favor of certain clubs based on talent and current performance. It's true that there are many a (bleep) team that would not have a chance in hell to win the WS, but, the Cardinals have proven before that all they need is an average team with a lot of heart to win it all. And, honestly, I really don't see the lower spending Cardinals ever having much of an above average team, other than by sucking for a long time and hitting on high draft picks. Point being, even though I know it's a front office favorite saying that "all you have to do is get in", and, I know that they managed to mess that up lately, but, in the end, that may be our only route to the WS. I say as long as the Cardinals are still a winning team, and, are in the playoffs come the trade deadline, they should roll the dice with the squad they have(maybe plus a BP arm, and maybe minus one of Gorman, Walker or Burleson, or, whomever else can get a good BP arm), and let this club find it's own destiny.

A foundation of Pujols, Yadi, Berkman, Holliday, and Carp makes a difference in the expected outcome in my opinion. 2011 unit had real veteran leadership to steer the ship.

This version has Nado who doesn't want to lead.

The only real 2 foundational veteran leadership/performance pieces this team has is Gray and Contreras.

That team did have better slugging talent than the current Cardinals, but, I really feel the edge the team played with was their best attribute. They just believed in themselves enough, and had enough talent. If the Cardinals could find a talented, once a generation, leader like Berkman to come play here cheap, I would be all for it. But, not sure St. Louis still has that baseball heaven drawing power that we had back then. Also, I can't see us spending for that kind of talent, and, even if we did, it might end up like the Goldy and Arenado situation, and the expensive contracts don't pan out.

I think the Cardinals really have to use their gut feelings about the team, and, if they think the team has a chance, they go for it by either staying pat, or, adding a piece that wouldn't harm their chemistry. I just think if the club is still playing the same quality of baseball they are playing right now come the trade deadline, this is a pretty darn good team. Maybe we can't say that at this point, but, if they keep it up.

Well...9-1 last 10 .....it's certainly an odd time to talk about tanking for draft picks.

If I were on the field playing, I wouldn't want anyone who thinks that way within a mile of me.

Coming back as they did on the road in that night cap was impressive.

Let 'em play.