We have an encouraging team - why we should have been sellers in 2023

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I gotta credit this to Matt, since he's the guy who was preaching this the loudest back in 2023. Now I believed at the time, and I think you can still see that ownerships is incredibly resistant to this kind of thing, especially when it comes to trading guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.

But look how encouraging this team is right now. Probably not enough to go anywhere, yet not enough in the minors that you could really acquire anyone of substance without selling out basically everyone in your system of value, and that would still be a tough climb to feel really good about winning in the playoffs. You can see that there is a good, young core, though.

Where would we be had we traded Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2023 at the deadline or in the offseason? They were both coming off MVP level years in 2022. They were both having amazing first halves in 2023. They would have gotten a pretty good haul of prospects. Probably at least one major league ready and one high level prospect each.

Last year too. What could we have gotten for Helsley? This year we are treating him exactly the same way we did last year in the hopes that he will stay healthy and replicate last season so that we can trade him at the deadline and get some prospects. Or what about Edman? Instead of Fedde, maybe he could have brought back a more longer-term prospect.

And not only that, but the second half of 2023 and all of 2024 is just more time to get that important playing time that we are trying to cram in this year for guys like Walker, Gorman, Burleson, Herrera, Saggese.

So what's my point? Look at how you can see the makings of a pretty good team coming together this year. You've got young guys coming into their own at the plate, on defense, and pitching. They may be a year or more off, but think if we had a few more good young pitchers and/or position players? We might be a year or two off of being really good instead of 3+ years. We avoided the inevitable and got nowhere in 2023 or 2024 when we could be getting somewhere now.

Or Mo could have made some lousy trades and screwed it all up. Who knows?

[sikeston bulldog2]

I gotta credit this to Matt, since he's the guy who was preaching this the loudest back in 2023. Now I believed at the time, and I think you can still see that ownerships is incredibly resistant to this kind of thing, especially when it comes to trading guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.

But look how encouraging this team is right now. Probably not enough to go anywhere, yet not enough in the minors that you could really acquire anyone of substance without selling out basically everyone in your system of value, and that would still be a tough climb to feel really good about winning in the playoffs. You can see that there is a good, young core, though.

Where would we be had we traded Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2023 at the deadline or in the offseason? They were both coming off MVP level years in 2022. They were both having amazing first halves in 2023. They would have gotten a pretty good haul of prospects. Probably at least one major league ready and one high level prospect each.

Last year too. What could we have gotten for Helsley? This year we are treating him exactly the same way we did last year in the hopes that he will stay healthy and replicate last season so that we can trade him at the deadline and get some prospects. Or what about Edman? Instead of Fedde, maybe he could have brought back a more longer-term prospect.

And not only that, but the second half of 2023 and all of 2024 is just more time to get that important playing time that we are trying to cram in this year for guys like Walker, Gorman, Burleson, Herrera, Saggese.

So what's my point? Look at how you can see the makings of a pretty good team coming together this year. You've got young guys coming into their own at the plate, on defense, and pitching. They may be a year or more off, but think if we had a few more good young pitchers and/or position players? We might be a year or two off of being really good instead of 3+ years. We avoided the inevitable and got nowhere in 2023 or 2024 when we could be getting somewhere now.

Or Mo could have made some lousy trades and screwed it all up. Who knows?

I like this point you make - Look at us now. That’s my view moving forward. If we can play this good in the reset, imagine our skills when it’s done. Excited.

[JDW]

Yep, signing Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn for the starting rotation last year might have felt good to some, but why? It just left the Cards in a muddling position of probably still going nowhere, while missing opportunities to sell off aging vets while they still had decent value. The timing of what they're doing now could have possibly been better done last year, but there's obviously never 100% guarantees of that.
That could have set it up to make it easier to be buyers before the deadline this year IF the opportunity and team situation was there.
But it is what it is, struggling to grind into a gear w/o a clutch to get out of neutral.
That said, I'm very encouraged with the potential of what can still be done to turn this team into a division contender in 2026, IF not this year, which I haven't given up on.
Now the muddled up part is whether to still be sellers before this years deadline IF the Cards are still within reasonable striking distance.



Oh yeah, if you deaccelerate the RPM's close to the point where a vehicle lugs, usually you can get it into at least a higher gear, which may have no analogy at all to the topic.

[hugeCardfan]

I gotta credit this to Matt, since he's the guy who was preaching this the loudest back in 2023. Now I believed at the time, and I think you can still see that ownerships is incredibly resistant to this kind of thing, especially when it comes to trading guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.

But look how encouraging this team is right now. Probably not enough to go anywhere, yet not enough in the minors that you could really acquire anyone of substance without selling out basically everyone in your system of value, and that would still be a tough climb to feel really good about winning in the playoffs. You can see that there is a good, young core, though.

Where would we be had we traded Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2023 at the deadline or in the offseason? They were both coming off MVP level years in 2022. They were both having amazing first halves in 2023. They would have gotten a pretty good haul of prospects. Probably at least one major league ready and one high level prospect each.

Last year too. What could we have gotten for Helsley? This year we are treating him exactly the same way we did last year in the hopes that he will stay healthy and replicate last season so that we can trade him at the deadline and get some prospects. Or what about Edman? Instead of Fedde, maybe he could have brought back a more longer-term prospect.

And not only that, but the second half of 2023 and all of 2024 is just more time to get that important playing time that we are trying to cram in this year for guys like Walker, Gorman, Burleson, Herrera, Saggese.

So what's my point? Look at how you can see the makings of a pretty good team coming together this year. You've got young guys coming into their own at the plate, on defense, and pitching. They may be a year or more off, but think if we had a few more good young pitchers and/or position players? We might be a year or two off of being really good instead of 3+ years. We avoided the inevitable and got nowhere in 2023 or 2024 when we could be getting somewhere now.

Or Mo could have made some lousy trades and screwed it all up. Who knows?

I don't think we are 3 + years away. We just need to gel healthy with the players working thru our system and pick up one or two along the way. I want to see a team next year with Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Graceffo, Pallante and a mid tier FA acquisition fighting for 5 spots. I want to see a bolstered pen with Hjerpe, Hence, Leahy, Romero, Zach Thompson, and Helsley extended all vying to fill out a pen augmented with a FA or two.

Add Davis and JJ to the current 26 man (including Saggese) and I'll be tickled to see what they can do. Walker and Gorman need to tight walk this year and next winter to see if they fit anymore.

I was in favor of trading Arenado and Goldy in '23, but I don't remember great starts for either one that year.

[scoutyjones2]

Oh, we won't give in
Let's go living in the past
Oh no, no, we won't give in
Let's go living in the past

Love Monday morning quarterbacking that's 2 years old....thinking that those changes and today's team would be melded optimally, and that things that you go back and change in 2023 wouldn't have rippled/changed everything you know and see today

[ICCFIM2]

I gotta credit this to Matt, since he's the guy who was preaching this the loudest back in 2023. Now I believed at the time, and I think you can still see that ownerships is incredibly resistant to this kind of thing, especially when it comes to trading guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.

But look how encouraging this team is right now. Probably not enough to go anywhere, yet not enough in the minors that you could really acquire anyone of substance without selling out basically everyone in your system of value, and that would still be a tough climb to feel really good about winning in the playoffs. You can see that there is a good, young core, though.

Where would we be had we traded Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2023 at the deadline or in the offseason? They were both coming off MVP level years in 2022. They were both having amazing first halves in 2023. They would have gotten a pretty good haul of prospects. Probably at least one major league ready and one high level prospect each.

Last year too. What could we have gotten for Helsley? This year we are treating him exactly the same way we did last year in the hopes that he will stay healthy and replicate last season so that we can trade him at the deadline and get some prospects. Or what about Edman? Instead of Fedde, maybe he could have brought back a more longer-term prospect.

And not only that, but the second half of 2023 and all of 2024 is just more time to get that important playing time that we are trying to cram in this year for guys like Walker, Gorman, Burleson, Herrera, Saggese.

So what's my point? Look at how you can see the makings of a pretty good team coming together this year. You've got young guys coming into their own at the plate, on defense, and pitching. They may be a year or more off, but think if we had a few more good young pitchers and/or position players? We might be a year or two off of being really good instead of 3+ years. We avoided the inevitable and got nowhere in 2023 or 2024 when we could be getting somewhere now.

Or Mo could have made some lousy trades and screwed it all up. Who knows?

I don't think we are 3 + years away. We just need to gel healthy with the players working thru our system and pick up one or two along the way. I want to see a team next year with Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Graceffo, Pallante and a mid tier FA acquisition fighting for 5 spots. I want to see a bolstered pen with Hjerpe, Hence, Leahy, Romero, Zach Thompson, and Helsley extended all vying to fill out a pen augmented with a FA or two.

Add Davis and JJ to the current 26 man (including Saggese) and I'll be tickled to see what they can do. Walker and Gorman need to tight walk this year and next winter to see if they fit anymore.

I was in favor of trading Arenado and Goldy in '23, but I don't remember great starts for either one that year.

I think this team is going to look a bit different than you suggest above. First, with the SP, the articles and Goold indicate a firm decision has been made to put Graceffo in the BP. Therefore, the SP are likely Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Pallante and an outside addition. With respect to the pen, I would be shocked if Helsley is here next year. They are training Graceffo to be the closer. Hjerpe had TJ surgery and is not scheduled to pitch again until the middle of next year. Hopefully Zach Thompson can regain health and pitch from the pen. They will need to add to the pen. I am not counting on any of Hence or Mathews until proven healthy.

Davis is in AA and is not setting the world on fire. At best he is going to be here in 2027. He might be good yet, he might not. JJ likely starts next year in AAA and makes the majors during 2026. Gorman I am guessing unless he really turns it around will get a fresh start somewhere else either at the trade deadline this year or next year. I am guessing they trade him for some arms to bolster the BP. Walker, I think gets more runway due to his age. But as I have suggested elsewhere, perhaps if Herrera can play the OF, he is a better fit due to his power profile.

Like yourself, I don't think they are 3+ years away. But ownership needs to be willing to spend on a SP and they need to spend on another MOTO bat. If they can trade Arenado and with Fedde, Mikolas, Matz and Helsley coming off the books, $60+M give or take coming off the books. That is plenty of money to obtain a SP and a bat and not even raise payroll that much from where they are currently at. We will see what they do.

[hugeCardfan]

I gotta credit this to Matt, since he's the guy who was preaching this the loudest back in 2023. Now I believed at the time, and I think you can still see that ownerships is incredibly resistant to this kind of thing, especially when it comes to trading guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.

But look how encouraging this team is right now. Probably not enough to go anywhere, yet not enough in the minors that you could really acquire anyone of substance without selling out basically everyone in your system of value, and that would still be a tough climb to feel really good about winning in the playoffs. You can see that there is a good, young core, though.

Where would we be had we traded Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2023 at the deadline or in the offseason? They were both coming off MVP level years in 2022. They were both having amazing first halves in 2023. They would have gotten a pretty good haul of prospects. Probably at least one major league ready and one high level prospect each.

Last year too. What could we have gotten for Helsley? This year we are treating him exactly the same way we did last year in the hopes that he will stay healthy and replicate last season so that we can trade him at the deadline and get some prospects. Or what about Edman? Instead of Fedde, maybe he could have brought back a more longer-term prospect.

And not only that, but the second half of 2023 and all of 2024 is just more time to get that important playing time that we are trying to cram in this year for guys like Walker, Gorman, Burleson, Herrera, Saggese.

So what's my point? Look at how you can see the makings of a pretty good team coming together this year. You've got young guys coming into their own at the plate, on defense, and pitching. They may be a year or more off, but think if we had a few more good young pitchers and/or position players? We might be a year or two off of being really good instead of 3+ years. We avoided the inevitable and got nowhere in 2023 or 2024 when we could be getting somewhere now.

Or Mo could have made some lousy trades and screwed it all up. Who knows?

I don't think we are 3 + years away. We just need to gel healthy with the players working thru our system and pick up one or two along the way. I want to see a team next year with Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Graceffo, Pallante and a mid tier FA acquisition fighting for 5 spots. I want to see a bolstered pen with Hjerpe, Hence, Leahy, Romero, Zach Thompson, and Helsley extended all vying to fill out a pen augmented with a FA or two.

Add Davis and JJ to the current 26 man (including Saggese) and I'll be tickled to see what they can do. Walker and Gorman need to tight walk this year and next winter to see if they fit anymore.

I was in favor of trading Arenado and Goldy in '23, but I don't remember great starts for either one that year.

I think this team is going to look a bit different than you suggest above. First, with the SP, the articles and Goold indicate a firm decision has been made to put Graceffo in the BP. Therefore, the SP are likely Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Pallante and an outside addition. With respect to the pen, I would be shocked if Helsley is here next year. They are training Graceffo to be the closer. Hjerpe had TJ surgery and is not scheduled to pitch again until the middle of next year. Hopefully Zach Thompson can regain health and pitch from the pen. They will need to add to the pen. I am not counting on any of Hence or Mathews until proven healthy.

Davis is in AA and is not setting the world on fire. At best he is going to be here in 2027. He might be good yet, he might not. JJ likely starts next year in AAA and makes the majors during 2026. Gorman I am guessing unless he really turns it around will get a fresh start somewhere else either at the trade deadline this year or next year. I am guessing they trade him for some arms to bolster the BP. Walker, I think gets more runway due to his age. But as I have suggested elsewhere, perhaps if Herrera can play the OF, he is a better fit due to his power profile.

Like yourself, I don't think they are 3+ years away. But ownership needs to be willing to spend on a SP and they need to spend on another MOTO bat. If they can trade Arenado and with Fedde, Mikolas, Matz and Helsley coming off the books, $60+M give or take coming off the books. That is plenty of money to obtain a SP and a bat and not even raise payroll that much from where they are currently at. We will see what they do.

I suspect it will be different. Don’t see all those players available at beginning of year. Maybe not everyone in ‘26. But, much sooner than 2029. Helsley still a Cardinal may be a pipe dream, but I wouldn’t be in too big a hurry to pronounce Graceffo closer. I’d much sooner see a more gradual succession…sp?

[ecleme22]

Yep, signing Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn for the starting rotation last year might have felt good to some, but why? It just left the Cards in a muddling position of probably still going nowhere, while missing opportunities to sell off aging vets while they still had decent value. The timing of what they're doing now could have possibly been better done last year, but there's obviously never 100% guarantees of that.
That could have set it up to make it easier to be buyers before the deadline this year IF the opportunity and team situation was there.
But it is what it is, struggling to grind into a gear w/o a clutch to get out of neutral.
That said, I'm very encouraged with the potential of what can still be done to turn this team into a division contender in 2026, IF not this year, which I haven't given up on.
Now the muddled up part is whether to still be sellers before this years deadline IF the Cards are still within reasonable striking distance.



Oh yeah, if you deaccelerate the RPM's close to the point where a vehicle lugs, usually you can get it into at least a higher gear, which may have no analogy at all to the topic.

Signing Gibson and Lynn made a lot of sense. They had no starters before.

Who’d have thought Walker, Goldie and Arenado would be bums bin the first half?

[mattmitchl44]

Hmmm....I didn't expect to read this thread this morning.

Should I be honored or frightened that people still remember what I said two years ago?

I, in turn, want to credit Branch Rickey, who I paraphrase as, "it is better to trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late."

[ICCFIM2]

Hmmm....I didn't expect to read this thread this morning.

Should I be honored or frightened that people still remember what I said two years ago?

I, in turn, want to credit Branch Rickey, who I paraphrase as, "it is better to trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late."

Take credit where credit is due...I would however point out the game has changed a bit since Rickey was around. With the cost of free agency, you have to hold onto players to try and get them to pan out if you are a mid market team. It remains true only to the extent that your evaluation of the player and the player you will receive back in a trade is better than the other team's valuation. That is hard to do.

It is also interesting that as much criticism as MO takes on this board, much of it deserved, he may be leaving the franchise in better shape than it has been in since 2015 or so when he leaves.

[thetank2]

I gotta credit this to Matt, since he's the guy who was preaching this the loudest back in 2023. Now I believed at the time, and I think you can still see that ownerships is incredibly resistant to this kind of thing, especially when it comes to trading guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.

But look how encouraging this team is right now. Probably not enough to go anywhere, yet not enough in the minors that you could really acquire anyone of substance without selling out basically everyone in your system of value, and that would still be a tough climb to feel really good about winning in the playoffs. You can see that there is a good, young core, though.

Where would we be had we traded Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2023 at the deadline or in the offseason? They were both coming off MVP level years in 2022. They were both having amazing first halves in 2023. They would have gotten a pretty good haul of prospects. Probably at least one major league ready and one high level prospect each.

Last year too. What could we have gotten for Helsley? This year we are treating him exactly the same way we did last year in the hopes that he will stay healthy and replicate last season so that we can trade him at the deadline and get some prospects. Or what about Edman? Instead of Fedde, maybe he could have brought back a more longer-term prospect.

And not only that, but the second half of 2023 and all of 2024 is just more time to get that important playing time that we are trying to cram in this year for guys like Walker, Gorman, Burleson, Herrera, Saggese.

So what's my point? Look at how you can see the makings of a pretty good team coming together this year. You've got young guys coming into their own at the plate, on defense, and pitching. They may be a year or more off, but think if we had a few more good young pitchers and/or position players? We might be a year or two off of being really good instead of 3+ years. We avoided the inevitable and got nowhere in 2023 or 2024 when we could be getting somewhere now.

Or Mo could have made some lousy trades and screwed it all up. Who knows?

I don't think we are 3 + years away. We just need to gel healthy with the players working thru our system and pick up one or two along the way. I want to see a team next year with Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Graceffo, Pallante and a mid tier FA acquisition fighting for 5 spots. I want to see a bolstered pen with Hjerpe, Hence, Leahy, Romero, Zach Thompson, and Helsley extended all vying to fill out a pen augmented with a FA or two.

Add Davis and JJ to the current 26 man (including Saggese) and I'll be tickled to see what they can do. Walker and Gorman need to tight walk this year and next winter to see if they fit anymore.

I was in favor of trading Arenado and Goldy in '23, but I don't remember great starts for either one that year.

Both did well up to the All-Star break.

[mattmitchl44]

Hmmm....I didn't expect to read this thread this morning.

Should I be honored or frightened that people still remember what I said two years ago?

I, in turn, want to credit Branch Rickey, who I paraphrase as, "it is better to trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late."

Take credit where credit is due...I would however point out the game has changed a bit since Rickey was around. With the cost of free agency, you have to hold onto players to try and get them to pan out if you are a mid market team. It remains true only to the extent that your evaluation of the player and the player you will receive back in a trade is better than the other team's valuation. That is hard to do.

It is also interesting that as much criticism as MO takes on this board, much of it deserved, he may be leaving the franchise in better shape than it has been in since 2015 or so when he leaves.

The game has certainly changed - but it has changed in a direction that makes building around young, cost controlled talent even more important.

For a number of decades, going back to at least the 1980s ($1 million max, $30K min) and 1990s ($3.2 million max, $100K min), the highest paid MLB players made about 30x the MLB minimum. Then that ratio started to grow in the 2000s, 2010s, etc.

Today, with the ML minimum at $760,000, we're seeing multiple players at 50x that ($38+ million).

As that ratio grows, young, cost controlled talent - players making around the ML minimum or in early ARB years become ever more valuable in order for teams to balance payroll while still being competitive. That's why teams always have to look seriously at trading aging veterans - maybe even a year too early - to get back more and more prospects which are necessary to matriculate young, cost controlled players to your ML team.

And we know that not all prospects will work out as expected to become productive ML players, but that isn't a reason to acquire/trade for less of them, that's a reason to acquire/trade for MORE of them because you have to have a sufficient number of them work out even given some "losses" in those that fail to do so.

[ramfandan]

Hmmm....I didn't expect to read this thread this morning.

Should I be honored or frightened that people still remember what I said two years ago?

I, in turn, want to credit Branch Rickey, who I paraphrase as, "it is better to trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late."

Honored ! The only frightened angle is when a guy's wife reminds him of something he said two years ago lol

[thetank2]

Hmmm....I didn't expect to read this thread this morning.

Should I be honored or frightened that people still remember what I said two years ago?

I, in turn, want to credit Branch Rickey, who I paraphrase as, "it is better to trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late."

Take credit where credit is due...I would however point out the game has changed a bit since Rickey was around. With the cost of free agency, you have to hold onto players to try and get them to pan out if you are a mid market team. It remains true only to the extent that your evaluation of the player and the player you will receive back in a trade is better than the other team's valuation. That is hard to do.

It is also interesting that as much criticism as MO takes on this board, much of it deserved, he may be leaving the franchise in better shape than it has been in since 2015 or so when he leaves.

The game has certainly changed - but it has changed in a direction that makes building around young, cost controlled talent even more important.

For a number of decades, going back to at least the 1980s ($1 million max, $30K min) and 1990s ($3.2 million max, $100K min), the highest paid MLB players made about 30x the MLB minimum. Then that ratio started to grow in the 2000s, 2010s, etc.

Today, with the ML minimum at $760,000, we're seeing multiple players at 50x that ($38+ million).

As that ratio grows, young, cost controlled talent - players making around the ML minimum or in early ARB years become ever more valuable in order for teams to balance payroll while still being competitive. That's why teams always have to look seriously at trading aging veterans - maybe even a year too early - to get back more and more prospects which are necessary to matriculate young, cost controlled players to your ML team.

And we know that not all prospects will work out as expected to become productive ML players, but that isn't a reason to acquire/trade for less of them, that's a reason to acquire/trade for MORE of them because you have to have a sufficient number of them work out even given some "losses" in those that fail to do so.

Keep in mind that if the Cards get 2 prospects for the 1 player traded we will have to release a player. Prospects unless the top ones are usually not worth it.

[mattmitchl44]

Hmmm....I didn't expect to read this thread this morning.

Should I be honored or frightened that people still remember what I said two years ago?

I, in turn, want to credit Branch Rickey, who I paraphrase as, "it is better to trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late."

Take credit where credit is due...I would however point out the game has changed a bit since Rickey was around. With the cost of free agency, you have to hold onto players to try and get them to pan out if you are a mid market team. It remains true only to the extent that your evaluation of the player and the player you will receive back in a trade is better than the other team's valuation. That is hard to do.

It is also interesting that as much criticism as MO takes on this board, much of it deserved, he may be leaving the franchise in better shape than it has been in since 2015 or so when he leaves.

The game has certainly changed - but it has changed in a direction that makes building around young, cost controlled talent even more important.

For a number of decades, going back to at least the 1980s ($1 million max, $30K min) and 1990s ($3.2 million max, $100K min), the highest paid MLB players made about 30x the MLB minimum. Then that ratio started to grow in the 2000s, 2010s, etc.

Today, with the ML minimum at $760,000, we're seeing multiple players at 50x that ($38+ million).

As that ratio grows, young, cost controlled talent - players making around the ML minimum or in early ARB years become ever more valuable in order for teams to balance payroll while still being competitive. That's why teams always have to look seriously at trading aging veterans - maybe even a year too early - to get back more and more prospects which are necessary to matriculate young, cost controlled players to your ML team.

And we know that not all prospects will work out as expected to become productive ML players, but that isn't a reason to acquire/trade for less of them, that's a reason to acquire/trade for MORE of them because you have to have a sufficient number of them work out even given some "losses" in those that fail to do so.

Keep in mind that if the Cards get 2 prospects for the 1 player traded we will have to release a player. Prospects unless the top ones are usually not worth it.

No, you don't, unless those prospects have to be put on the 40-man roster. But you can trade for very good prospects who don't yet have to be protected on the 40-man roster.

[gashouse59]

I gotta credit this to Matt, since he's the guy who was preaching this the loudest back in 2023. Now I believed at the time, and I think you can still see that ownerships is incredibly resistant to this kind of thing, especially when it comes to trading guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.

But look how encouraging this team is right now. Probably not enough to go anywhere, yet not enough in the minors that you could really acquire anyone of substance without selling out basically everyone in your system of value, and that would still be a tough climb to feel really good about winning in the playoffs. You can see that there is a good, young core, though.

Where would we be had we traded Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2023 at the deadline or in the offseason? They were both coming off MVP level years in 2022. They were both having amazing first halves in 2023. They would have gotten a pretty good haul of prospects. Probably at least one major league ready and one high level prospect each.

Last year too. What could we have gotten for Helsley? This year we are treating him exactly the same way we did last year in the hopes that he will stay healthy and replicate last season so that we can trade him at the deadline and get some prospects. Or what about Edman? Instead of Fedde, maybe he could have brought back a more longer-term prospect.

And not only that, but the second half of 2023 and all of 2024 is just more time to get that important playing time that we are trying to cram in this year for guys like Walker, Gorman, Burleson, Herrera, Saggese.

So what's my point? Look at how you can see the makings of a pretty good team coming together this year. You've got young guys coming into their own at the plate, on defense, and pitching. They may be a year or more off, but think if we had a few more good young pitchers and/or position players? We might be a year or two off of being really good instead of 3+ years. We avoided the inevitable and got nowhere in 2023 or 2024 when we could be getting somewhere now.

Or Mo could have made some lousy trades and screwed it all up. Who knows?

I don't think we are 3 + years away. We just need to gel healthy with the players working thru our system and pick up one or two along the way. I want to see a team next year with Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Graceffo, Pallante and a mid tier FA acquisition fighting for 5 spots. I want to see a bolstered pen with Hjerpe, Hence, Leahy, Romero, Zach Thompson, and Helsley extended all vying to fill out a pen augmented with a FA or two.

Add Davis and JJ to the current 26 man (including Saggese) and I'll be tickled to see what they can do. Walker and Gorman need to tight walk this year and next winter to see if they fit anymore.

I was in favor of trading Arenado and Goldy in '23, but I don't remember great starts for either one that year.

I think this team is going to look a bit different than you suggest above. First, with the SP, the articles and Goold indicate a firm decision has been made to put Graceffo in the BP. Therefore, the SP are likely Sonny, Libby, McGreevy, Pallante and an outside addition. With respect to the pen, I would be shocked if Helsley is here next year. They are training Graceffo to be the closer. Hjerpe had TJ surgery and is not scheduled to pitch again until the middle of next year. Hopefully Zach Thompson can regain health and pitch from the pen. They will need to add to the pen. I am not counting on any of Hence or Mathews until proven healthy.

Davis is in AA and is not setting the world on fire. At best he is going to be here in 2027. He might be good yet, he might not. JJ likely starts next year in AAA and makes the majors during 2026. Gorman I am guessing unless he really turns it around will get a fresh start somewhere else either at the trade deadline this year or next year. I am guessing they trade him for some arms to bolster the BP. Walker, I think gets more runway due to his age. But as I have suggested elsewhere, perhaps if Herrera can play the OF, he is a better fit due to his power profile.

Like yourself, I don't think they are 3+ years away. But ownership needs to be willing to spend on a SP and they need to spend on another MOTO bat. If they can trade Arenado and with Fedde, Mikolas, Matz and Helsley coming off the books, $60+M give or take coming off the books. That is plenty of money to obtain a SP and a bat and not even raise payroll that much from where they are currently at. We will see what they do.

Maybe Leahy is your 5th starter next year?