Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz

[hmoss859]

Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand

Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.

Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out

BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon

The fence straddling is just quicksand

Please, "savant," how long does it take to "flame out" as a youngster

Oh super genius...

Normally 1200-1500 MLB at bats is the flame out point

Gorman has 1120 AB and Walker 696

Instead of being a smart aleck with your genius comment maybe you should learn from the Savant

Gorman and Walker need 500 at bats this season, team record be damned,both are first round picks

Gorman is nearing the flame out point, Walker deserves more runway

So a 23 year old with 700 AB's is at risk of flaming out while still under control?

I think I could learn nothing from a self proclaimed savant...

Walker has more runway, Gorman is much shorter is what the OP implies, maybe work on your comprende skills Scouty

It’s that simple, Saggese is waiting in wings to replace Gorman

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand

Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.

Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out

BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon

The fence straddling is just quicksand

Please, "savant," how long does it take to "flame out" as a youngster

Oh super genius...

Normally 1200-1500 MLB at bats is the flame out point

Gorman has 1120 AB and Walker 696

Instead of being a smart aleck with your genius comment maybe you should learn from the Savant

Gorman and Walker need 500 at bats this season, team record be damned,both are first round picks

Gorman is nearing the flame out point, Walker deserves more runway

So a 23 year old with 700 AB's is at risk of flaming out while still under control?

I think I could learn nothing from a self proclaimed savant...

Walker has more runway, Gorman is much shorter is what the OP implies, maybe work on your comprende skills Scouty

It’s that simple, Saggese is waiting in wings to replace Gorman

Can’t wait.

[ICCFIM2]

Mike Shannon always said 1000 MLB at bats was the signal going forward with a prospect

Maybe it’s 1500 AB these days, all I know is neither Gorman or Walker have a lick of confidence at plate right now

Winn and Scott have a different swag about them and have adjusted as needed, and I no doubt have confidence they are on the right path

I say let 2025 decide Gorman and Walkers future, maybe both need a change of scenery

But the standings have to be ignored in 2025, this is not a playoff team in any form or fashion

They aren’t that far off one though. With the right moves, I believe they could be an interesting playoff team.

Libby has already shown that he can go toe to toe with other team’s aces, he’s out dueled Zack Wheeler and Paul Skenes this season. Sonny Gray is a very good, competitive starter himself. If you were to add maybe one more SP to the mix that could pitch like them, you’ve got a trio that could give you a good shot.

The offense should get better now with Herrera back healthy. The offense is solid except for one more corner OFer.

And then the bullpen, for now, has an elite closer and Leahy has proven to be a good bullpen arm. Maton is a solid vet. Matz has been terrific, albeit will probably be traded. We’ll see what Graceffo can do out of the bullpen.

I think with the right moves or right improvements, the team could at least make this year interesting.

^^^THIS^^^

Why are we just going to throw this season in the waste basket when all the other NLC teams, yes even the scrubbies who are seeing starting pitchers fall like flies and can't maintain this scoring pace, have just as many warts as the Cardinals?

Sure you can still deal Mikolas if he'd waive and/or Fedde (sliding McGreevy in one of their slots), perhaps even NADO and/or Matz.

But unless the return is too good to pass up, then I don't want to see them get rid of Helsley for lotto tickets.

IF this teams figures out it's road woes and can play .500 ball there from here out, then their great Home record (if it continues) could easily make them strong contenders for the NLC.

We don't have to toss the season away. But it would be better if they could get there with what they have plus a bullpen arm or two. The SP could be solved internally with McGreevy joining the rotation. For certain they need BP help and if they are close, they can probably acquire an arm or two for Gorman from a non contender that sees his upside still. I think that is the most likely path to contend this year.

I also wonder if the OF problems could be solved by converting Herrera to an OF over the offseason. I have no idea if he is good enough to play RF or not. But if he can, an OF of Noot, Scott, Herrera and an IF of Wetherholdt, Winn, Donovan and Contreras might be good enough, talking 2026 here.

[imetsatchelpaige]

No the best analogy is- they are caught somewhere between a memory and a dream.

Memory of whiteys teams, dream of the 2004 team. Caught the n the middle.

Well, you did it now....apropos for subject and poster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TlBTPITo1I

[sikeston bulldog2]

No the best analogy is- they are caught somewhere between a memory and a dream.

Memory of whiteys teams, dream of the 2004 team. Caught the n the middle.

Well, you did it now....apropos for subject and poster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TlBTPITo1I

Let’s get to the point. Thank you.

[rockondlouie]

Mike Shannon always said 1000 MLB at bats was the signal going forward with a prospect

Maybe it’s 1500 AB these days, all I know is neither Gorman or Walker have a lick of confidence at plate right now

Winn and Scott have a different swag about them and have adjusted as needed, and I no doubt have confidence they are on the right path

I say let 2025 decide Gorman and Walkers future, maybe both need a change of scenery

But the standings have to be ignored in 2025, this is not a playoff team in any form or fashion

They aren’t that far off one though. With the right moves, I believe they could be an interesting playoff team.

Libby has already shown that he can go toe to toe with other team’s aces, he’s out dueled Zack Wheeler and Paul Skenes this season. Sonny Gray is a very good, competitive starter himself. If you were to add maybe one more SP to the mix that could pitch like them, you’ve got a trio that could give you a good shot.

The offense should get better now with Herrera back healthy. The offense is solid except for one more corner OFer.

And then the bullpen, for now, has an elite closer and Leahy has proven to be a good bullpen arm. Maton is a solid vet. Matz has been terrific, albeit will probably be traded. We’ll see what Graceffo can do out of the bullpen.

I think with the right moves or right improvements, the team could at least make this year interesting.

^^^THIS^^^

Why are we just going to throw this season in the waste basket when all the other NLC teams, yes even the scrubbies who are seeing starting pitchers fall like flies and can't maintain this scoring pace, have just as many warts as the Cardinals?

Sure you can still deal Mikolas if he'd waive and/or Fedde (sliding McGreevy in one of their slots), perhaps even NADO and/or Matz.

But unless the return is too good to pass up, then I don't want to see them get rid of Helsley for lotto tickets.

IF this teams figures out it's road woes and can play .500 ball there from here out, then their great Home record (if it continues) could easily make them strong contenders for the NLC.

We don't have to toss the season away. But it would be better if they could get there with what they have plus a bullpen arm or two. The SP could be solved internally with McGreevy joining the rotation. For certain they need BP help and if they are close, they can probably acquire an arm or two for Gorman from a non contender that sees his upside still. I think that is the most likely path to contend this year.

I also wonder if the OF problems could be solved by converting Herrera to an OF over the offseason. I have no idea if he is good enough to play RF or not. But if he can, an OF of Noot, Scott, Herrera and an IF of Wetherholdt, Winn, Donovan and Contreras might be good enough, talking 2026 here.

I'd like to see them add that bullpen arm (or two) midseason as well ICC.

I started suggesting they convert Hererra to the OF'er last year and got laughed at by some here in CT.

Now more are starting to say the same thing and I think they have to consider it this offseason.

He doesn't have to play there FT given he can DH but being able to slot him in LF (or RF) would be a bonus if (the new manager--fingers crossed) wants to use a different DH that game.

Hopefully C. Bloom and his staff are more forward thinking than Mo etal and they give him an OF'er glove this winter and send J. Jay to work w/him.

Up the middle is looking good w/Winn at SS and VSII in CF, J.J. on the way for 2nd base, solid catching from Pages and hitting from Pozo w/more backstops on the way!

Fingers crossed BDWJr gives Bloom a decent payroll ($170M) to work with as I'd really like to see what moves he wants to make.

This season is NOT the dumpster fire many in here think it is or has to be if they can figure out their road woes and add some arms to the pen'.

JMO

[imetsatchelpaige]

This season is NOT the dumpster fire many in here think it is or has to be if they can figure out their road woes and add some arms to the pen'.

I would say the next three series will answer that question.
Smoke or fire? We are about to find out.

[sikeston bulldog2]

This season is NOT the dumpster fire many in here think it is or has to be if they can figure out their road woes and add some arms to the pen'.

I would say the next three series will answer that question.
Smoke or fire? We are about to find out.

I’m saying 4-5 on trip, and actually happy.

[Futuregm2]

This season is NOT the dumpster fire many in here think it is or has to be if they can figure out their road woes and add some arms to the pen'.

I would say the next three series will answer that question.
Smoke or fire? We are about to find out.

I’m saying 4-5 on trip, and actually happy.

I’m hoping for 6-3, but I think 5-4 is probably more likely and I think I’d be happy with that. I think we will face 4 lefties in the first 6 games.

[sikeston bulldog2]

This season is NOT the dumpster fire many in here think it is or has to be if they can figure out their road woes and add some arms to the pen'.

I would say the next three series will answer that question.
Smoke or fire? We are about to find out.

I’m saying 4-5 on trip, and actually happy.

I’m hoping for 6-3, but I think 5-4 is probably more likely and I think I’d be happy with that.

That’s strong. Nats scare me. Young nothing to lose. Although I am thinking winning two there. The other two 1-2 at each.

[thetank2]

hmoss859: I don't trust MO to make the right decision.

no kidding !
who does?

Why bring this up?

[Baseball Savant]

The most concerning thing about Gorman is his precipitous drop in bat speed, from 73th fastest percentile to 27th fastest percentile, how does one drop that far in a year

Walker at least has great bat speed working for him, now the pitch recognition thing is another story.

FWIW, think clearing Arenado off the roster will help all the young position players too

Let it be their team

[ICCFIM2]

The most concerning thing about Gorman is his precipitous drop in bat speed, from 73th fastest percentile to 27th fastest percentile, how does one drop that far in a year

Walker at least has great bat speed working for him, now the pitch recognition thing is another story.

FWIW, think clearing Arenado off the roster will help all the young position players too

Let it be their team

I agree on Arenado as well. He probably stays here through this year unless the Dodgers decide to move on from Muncy. If they do, that would be best for Arenado and the Cards. Perhaps the Cards could get one of there perennially hurt superstar young pitchers plus a lower arm for Arenado. Specifically, Gavin Stone, who is hurt and may never be good again, but could be great, plus one of there pitchers that are in the 15-25 range on there prospect list would be a good get.

[ICCFIM2]

I'd like to see them add that bullpen arm (or two) midseason as well ICC.

I started suggesting they convert Hererra to the OF'er last year and got laughed at by some here in CT.

Now more are starting to say the same thing and I think they have to consider it this offseason.

He doesn't have to play there FT given he can DH but being able to slot him in LF (or RF) would be a bonus if (the new manager--fingers crossed) wants to use a different DH that game.

Hopefully C. Bloom and his staff are more forward thinking than Mo etal and they give him an OF'er glove this winter and send J. Jay to work w/him.

Up the middle is looking good w/Winn at SS and VSII in CF, J.J. on the way for 2nd base, solid catching from Pages and hitting from Pozo w/more backstops on the way!

Fingers crossed BDWJr gives Bloom a decent payroll ($170M) to work with as I'd really like to see what moves he wants to make.

This season is NOT the dumpster fire many in here think it is or has to be if they can figure out their road woes and add some arms to the pen'.

JMO

I don't know if I was one that was dismissive of Herrera in the OF or not. I am also of the view that the Cards have to let the Walker situation play out this year. What has changed my mind on Herrera is that with the apparent demise of Gorman, Herrera may be the only true power hitter on this team. I am not sure what his upside is, but maybe he is a 25-30 HR guy. Walker does not appear to be that, no matter how much the Cards want it to be. So my view has changed on Herrera because he appears to potentially be the MOTO bat the Cards need.

I am thinking Wetherholdt is 3B, perhaps Donovan, assuming the Cards move on from Arenado. Looking at Wetherholdt's stats, he does not appear to be a HR hitter either. I am thinking Wetherholdt will be ready middle of next season. So thinking a line-up of

Scott CF LH
Winn SS RH
Herrera RF RH
Contreras 1B RH
Donovan 2B LH
Wetherholdt 3B LH
Nootbar LF LH
DH Burleson?
Pages/Pozo C RH

This is a decent line-up. Saggese will get ABs as well. They could use a DH with more pop. Perhaps Burleson or Walker earn more ABs as this season progresses. All-in-all, we should be happy that they appear to have a core that could win if management is willing to fill in a couple holes. Another big bat in this line-up at DH, plus a TOR SP and a couple bullpen arms and the team should be competitive.

[rockondlouie]

I'd like to see them add that bullpen arm (or two) midseason as well ICC.

I started suggesting they convert Hererra to the OF'er last year and got laughed at by some here in CT.

Now more are starting to say the same thing and I think they have to consider it this offseason.

He doesn't have to play there FT given he can DH but being able to slot him in LF (or RF) would be a bonus if (the new manager--fingers crossed) wants to use a different DH that game.

Hopefully C. Bloom and his staff are more forward thinking than Mo etal and they give him an OF'er glove this winter and send J. Jay to work w/him.

Up the middle is looking good w/Winn at SS and VSII in CF, J.J. on the way for 2nd base, solid catching from Pages and hitting from Pozo w/more backstops on the way!

Fingers crossed BDWJr gives Bloom a decent payroll ($170M) to work with as I'd really like to see what moves he wants to make.

This season is NOT the dumpster fire many in here think it is or has to be if they can figure out their road woes and add some arms to the pen'.

JMO

I don't know if I was one that was dismissive of Herrera in the OF or not. I am also of the view that the Cards have to let the Walker situation play out this year. What has changed my mind on Herrera is that with the apparent demise of Gorman, Herrera may be the only true power hitter on this team. I am not sure what his upside is, but maybe he is a 25-30 HR guy. Walker does not appear to be that, no matter how much the Cards want it to be. So my view has changed on Herrera because he appears to potentially be the MOTO bat the Cards need.

I am thinking Wetherholdt is 3B, perhaps Donovan, assuming the Cards move on from Arenado. Looking at Wetherholdt's stats, he does not appear to be a HR hitter either. I am thinking Wetherholdt will be ready middle of next season. So thinking a line-up of

Scott CF LH
Winn SS RH
Herrera RF RH
Contreras 1B RH
Donovan 2B LH
Wetherholdt 3B LH
Nootbar LF LH
DH Burleson?
Pages/Pozo C RH

This is a decent line-up. Saggese will get ABs as well. They could use a DH with more pop. Perhaps Burleson or Walker earn more ABs as this season progresses. All-in-all, we should be happy that they appear to have a core that could win if management is willing to fill in a couple holes. Another big bat in this line-up at DH, plus a TOR SP and a couple bullpen arms and the team should be competitive.

You weren't, didn't mean you.

I think you're correct, Hererra may be the only "power hitter" in the organization and I think he's more of a 20-25 guy unless his power keeps progressing (which we hope happens).

Agree on Walker, I'm getting close to the "moving on crowd" when it comes to Norman.

For the time being, and maybe going forward, Hererra absolutely has to be the near full time DH.

I'm not a fan of JJW at 3rd base, rather see him at 2nd.

Nor am I a fan of Donovan at 3rd, rather see him in LF.

If/When they move on from NADO, then they need to either trade for or sign a true MOTO bat to play 3rd (I know, easier said than done) but that's what needs to happen.

[scoutyjones2]

Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand

Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.

Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out

BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon

The fence straddling is just quicksand

Trades take multiple parties to come to agreement
There weren't any acceptable ones to at least one of the parties involved. But I get it, Savant thinks it's like a grocery store.