Tied for 2d in the Central...

[illiniriles]

Cubbies got off to a red hot start, too. But they ain't as great as their fans think they are. Nice series sweep against the woeful Buccos. You've got to beat the teams you SHOULD beat. Even if they have Skenes.
GO REDBIRDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ronnie Dobbs]

No offense, but if you're talking about going all in, who are you going to trade? JJ Wetherholt? All our best pitching prospects are hurt. So we're going to give up our farm system for what? Does anyone really think we have the type of team that is good enough to push all in for this offseason?

Sorry, I'm enjoying watching this team right now, but that's nuts.

[hugeCardfan]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

Agreed

Yes, we are all frustrated by Walker/Gorman, but it shouldn’t take away from the rise of VS2 (.771 OPS) or Winn (.776 OPS) as well as the steady play of Nootbaar (.782 OPS) and Donovan (.854 OPS). This team has a good collection of young guys and steady vets. And should be getting Herrera back soon, which will be huge. Libby stepping up has been HUGE.

Right. I refuse to be shocked by the significant success. Conditions and talent have hinted all along that at some point...soon, much would be revealed, and, more than a little would be quite pleasant. Admittedly, we couldn't be sure who, but the odds were, given the parameters of exposure, that conditions were right for players to blossom and show us what they are capable of.... Moreover, the decision to keep Helsley, Fedde, and even Sonny, Donovan and Contreras hinted that the FO had a few ideas of their own. Hell, we might be competitive.

Yes, Libby's reveal is huge. So are McGreevy's and Graceffo's; Leary too. The team has needs, but, there is much to encourage. Now, a question will be, do we hold onto Helsley and Fedde until the end of the season? I don't know. But, they should be critical to a good finish in '25.

[Talkin' Baseball]

No offense, but if you're talking about going all in, who are you going to trade? JJ Wetherholt? All our best pitching prospects are hurt. So we're going to give up our farm system for what? Does anyone really think we have the type of team that is good enough to push all in for this offseason?

Sorry, I'm enjoying watching this team right now, but that's nuts.

This.

[bfib]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

Correct, letting these young guys play was never punting the season as many said.

Not all have performed, but many have. The same can be said with veterans where you are locked in with long big money deals.

If guys like Walker and Gorman continue to struggle, you have significantly more options than a guy making 20M per year.

This team still has the potential to be good. They have a good strategy at this point. The only thing they really screwed up in the offseason was not getting Arenado traded.

[ICCFIM2]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

Agreed

Yes, we are all frustrated by Walker/Gorman, but it shouldn’t take away from the rise of VS2 (.771 OPS) or Winn (.776 OPS) as well as the steady play of Nootbaar (.782 OPS) and Donovan (.854 OPS). This team has a good collection of young guys and steady vets. And should be getting Herrera back soon, which will be huge. Libby stepping up has been HUGE.

Right. I refuse to be shocked by the significant success. Conditions and talent have hinted all along that at some point...soon, much would be revealed, and, more than a little would be quite pleasant. Admittedly, we couldn't be sure who, but the odds were, given the parameters of exposure, that conditions were right for players to blossom and show us what they are capable of.... Moreover, the decision to keep Helsley, Fedde, and even Sonny, Donovan and Contreras hinted that the FO had a few ideas of their own. Hell, we might be competitive.

Yes, Libby's reveal is huge. So are McGreevy's and Graceffo's; Leary too. The team has needs, but, there is much to encourage. Now, a question will be, do we hold onto Helsley and Fedde until the end of the season? I don't know. But, they should be critical to a good finish in '25.

Helsley will be critical for success. But, if they are offered a huge return, it might be hard to turn that down unless they are leading the NL central at the time. Fedde, I think they should move on from. McGreevy is ready. Matz is a back-up. Probably want to keep him until the end of June as injury protection. But after that, they need to get some return.

[ICCFIM2]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

We can and should get more than a couple relievers at the deadlines if we are still in the mix. There's plenty of dry powder BDW has squirreled away as well as borderline players we could swap out for upgrades. Yes Noot, Scott and Winn are part of this run, and we can build around them and some others, as well as Willson, Gray, maybe Nado, etc. But just because Gorman isn't 30 yet doesn't mean we can't ever call it and decide we can do better with someone else. He's never going to be Arenado or Witt Jr.

But if there's a chance to compete in the playoffs, we should go all in regardless of what the "plan" was. Take advantage of Libby and Gray and McGreevy and Leahy and Helsley and whoever else is contributing while we have them all here -and add to it to get us to the next level.

If we simply wait on the next generation of prospects to develop - several of our current contributors will have moved on by then and we will still be treading water - just kinda replacing lost talent instead of adding marginal improvement. We are going to have to add from outside to get enough better to really win, but we just might be close enough to actually make those moves and give it a real try.

I don't know what you mean by going all in if we can get into the playoffs. I see the situation like this.

1. If they are in playoff contention and there are no significant injuries or changes to current player results, I would try to trade Fedde for a future arm and have McGreevy in the rotation. I would try to trade Gorman to a non-contender for a 7th inning guy hopefully with at least 2 years of control. If a minor leaguer like Prieto or someone like that can get another reliever great. I can't see them doing much more than that to shore up this team given the strategy.

2. Whether they are in contention or not, if they get a huge offer for Helsley, they may need to move him. In particular if they cannot extend him or have no intention of doing so. He could fetch a top 5 prospect from a contender that needs a closer. That could have a huge impact on the teams future success.

3. If they fall out of contention, then a firesale of Helsley, Fedde, Matz and hopefully Arenado to the Dodgers since Muncy appears to be done there. In that case, I would let Gorman and Saggese finish out the season. If Gorman is still failing by year end, try to make a change of scenery trade with him over the winter. The only issue with trading all three of those arms is whether they have the arms to cover the remaining innings in the season. If they do that, the end of the season will be ugly.

I would like to see them do more if they are in contention as well. But given the plan and the lack of prospects in the minors, it is hard to see them doing a lot. If Walker continues to fail, my next question is whether Herrera can play the OF. If he can next year, that changes the dynamic of this line-up a lot. But as of now, Jimmy Crooks is not exactly tearing it up in Memphis. So if Herrera goes to the OF, we might have Pages and Pozo behind the plate again next year, which is not awful. They still have too many moving pieces at this point to figure out to really be a true contender. But you never know, maybe the team gels like the Blues did.

[rockondlouie]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

Agreed

Yes, we are all frustrated by Walker/Gorman, but it shouldn’t take away from the rise of VS2 (.771 OPS) or Winn (.776 OPS) as well as the steady play of Nootbaar (.782 OPS) and Donovan (.854 OPS). This team has a good collection of young guys and steady vets. And should be getting Herrera back soon, which will be huge. Libby stepping up has been HUGE.

I'll add Leahy to the players who are reaching a "plus ceiling".

[Futuregm2]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

We can and should get more than a couple relievers at the deadlines if we are still in the mix. There's plenty of dry powder BDW has squirreled away as well as borderline players we could swap out for upgrades. Yes Noot, Scott and Winn are part of this run, and we can build around them and some others, as well as Willson, Gray, maybe Nado, etc. But just because Gorman isn't 30 yet doesn't mean we can't ever call it and decide we can do better with someone else. He's never going to be Arenado or Witt Jr.

But if there's a chance to compete in the playoffs, we should go all in regardless of what the "plan" was. Take advantage of Libby and Gray and McGreevy and Leahy and Helsley and whoever else is contributing while we have them all here -and add to it to get us to the next level.

If we simply wait on the next generation of prospects to develop - several of our current contributors will have moved on by then and we will still be treading water - just kinda replacing lost talent instead of adding marginal improvement. We are going to have to add from outside to get enough better to really win, but we just might be close enough to actually make those moves and give it a real try.

I don't know what you mean by going all in if we can get into the playoffs. I see the situation like this.

1. If they are in playoff contention and there are no significant injuries or changes to current player results, I would try to trade Fedde for a future arm and have McGreevy in the rotation. I would try to trade Gorman to a non-contender for a 7th inning guy hopefully with at least 2 years of control. If a minor leaguer like Prieto or someone like that can get another reliever great. I can't see them doing much more than that to shore up this team given the strategy.

2. Whether they are in contention or not, if they get a huge offer for Helsley, they may need to move him. In particular if they cannot extend him or have no intention of doing so. He could fetch a top 5 prospect from a contender that needs a closer. That could have a huge impact on the teams future success.

3. If they fall out of contention, then a firesale of Helsley, Fedde, Matz and hopefully Arenado to the Dodgers since Muncy appears to be done there. In that case, I would let Gorman and Saggese finish out the season. If Gorman is still failing by year end, try to make a change of scenery trade with him over the winter. The only issue with trading all three of those arms is whether they have the arms to cover the remaining innings in the season. If they do that, the end of the season will be ugly.

I would like to see them do more if they are in contention as well. But given the plan and the lack of prospects in the minors, it is hard to see them doing a lot. If Walker continues to fail, my next question is whether Herrera can play the OF. If he can next year, that changes the dynamic of this line-up a lot. But as of now, Jimmy Crooks is not exactly tearing it up in Memphis. So if Herrera goes to the OF, we might have Pages and Pozo behind the plate again next year, which is not awful. They still have too many moving pieces at this point to figure out to really be a true contender. But you never know, maybe the team gels like the Blues did.

Sounds like Chris Davis for Koji Uehara 2.0.

I would rather trade Davis for young pitcher that another team has soured on. I would have thought about the Giants for Kyle Harrison, they just called him back up though.

[Talkin' Baseball]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

We can and should get more than a couple relievers at the deadlines if we are still in the mix. There's plenty of dry powder BDW has squirreled away as well as borderline players we could swap out for upgrades. Yes Noot, Scott and Winn are part of this run, and we can build around them and some others, as well as Willson, Gray, maybe Nado, etc. But just because Gorman isn't 30 yet doesn't mean we can't ever call it and decide we can do better with someone else. He's never going to be Arenado or Witt Jr.

But if there's a chance to compete in the playoffs, we should go all in regardless of what the "plan" was. Take advantage of Libby and Gray and McGreevy and Leahy and Helsley and whoever else is contributing while we have them all here -and add to it to get us to the next level.

If we simply wait on the next generation of prospects to develop - several of our current contributors will have moved on by then and we will still be treading water - just kinda replacing lost talent instead of adding marginal improvement. We are going to have to add from outside to get enough better to really win, but we just might be close enough to actually make those moves and give it a real try.

I don't know what you mean by going all in if we can get into the playoffs. I see the situation like this.

1. If they are in playoff contention and there are no significant injuries or changes to current player results, I would try to trade Fedde for a future arm and have McGreevy in the rotation. I would try to trade Gorman to a non-contender for a 7th inning guy hopefully with at least 2 years of control. If a minor leaguer like Prieto or someone like that can get another reliever great. I can't see them doing much more than that to shore up this team given the strategy.

2. Whether they are in contention or not, if they get a huge offer for Helsley, they may need to move him. In particular if they cannot extend him or have no intention of doing so. He could fetch a top 5 prospect from a contender that needs a closer. That could have a huge impact on the teams future success.

3. If they fall out of contention, then a firesale of Helsley, Fedde, Matz and hopefully Arenado to the Dodgers since Muncy appears to be done there. In that case, I would let Gorman and Saggese finish out the season. If Gorman is still failing by year end, try to make a change of scenery trade with him over the winter. The only issue with trading all three of those arms is whether they have the arms to cover the remaining innings in the season. If they do that, the end of the season will be ugly.

I would like to see them do more if they are in contention as well. But given the plan and the lack of prospects in the minors, it is hard to see them doing a lot. If Walker continues to fail, my next question is whether Herrera can play the OF. If he can next year, that changes the dynamic of this line-up a lot. But as of now, Jimmy Crooks is not exactly tearing it up in Memphis. So if Herrera goes to the OF, we might have Pages and Pozo behind the plate again next year, which is not awful. They still have too many moving pieces at this point to figure out to really be a true contender. But you never know, maybe the team gels like the Blues did.

Sounds like Chris Davis for Koji Uehara 2.0.

I would rather trade Davis for young pitcher that another team has soured on. I would have thought about the Giants for Kyle Harrison, they just called him back up though.

In the offseason I wondered about Reid Detmers for Gorman.

[JDW]

No offense, but if you're talking about going all in, who are you going to trade? JJ Wetherholt? All our best pitching prospects are hurt. So we're going to give up our farm system for what? Does anyone really think we have the type of team that is good enough to push all in for this offseason?

Sorry, I'm enjoying watching this team right now, but that's nuts.

This.

Just for fun, let's say the Cards found themselves 5 games over .500 a month from now and just trailed the Cubs by 2 games.
Do you change your mind then? If not, then what would it take before the end of let's say June, when you still have time to readjust plans before the trade deadline?
Am I daydreaming? Sure, a little, why not?
You never know.

[ramfandan]

2nd place in the central is like being voted prettiest fat girl.

So is 1st place in Central like being voted ugliest fat girl ?

[sikeston bulldog2]

Let’s stay in our lane here. This is a reset. After this year several young players will get cut and several will stay. With Scott emerging the need for a big outfield bat now switches to left or right field. That will happen. Then play 2026.

Let’s not pretend we are a deep competitive team. We are .500, we are doing well because there is no expectation to succeed, just play.

So far, 4-5 young players look good.

[Futuregm2]

No offense, but if you're talking about going all in, who are you going to trade? JJ Wetherholt? All our best pitching prospects are hurt. So we're going to give up our farm system for what? Does anyone really think we have the type of team that is good enough to push all in for this offseason?

Sorry, I'm enjoying watching this team right now, but that's nuts.

This.

Just for fun, let's say the Cards found themselves 5 games over .500 a month from now and just trailed the Cubs by 2 games.
Do you change your mind then? If not, then what would it take before the end of let's say June, when you still have time to readjust plans before the trade deadline?
Am I daydreaming? Sure, a little, why not?
You never know.

I feel like if you did it right, you could be both a seller and a buyer. Trade a guy like Fedde/Matz/Mikolas. But also replace one of them with McGreevy, trade Gorman or Walker+ for a pitcher to upgrade the other. Trade Baker for a reliever to replace Matz. And then Helsley depends on how the offers are to me.

[Talkin' Baseball]

No offense, but if you're talking about going all in, who are you going to trade? JJ Wetherholt? All our best pitching prospects are hurt. So we're going to give up our farm system for what? Does anyone really think we have the type of team that is good enough to push all in for this offseason?

Sorry, I'm enjoying watching this team right now, but that's nuts.

This.

Just for fun, let's say the Cards found themselves 5 games over .500 a month from now and just trailed the Cubs by 2 games.
Do you change your mind then? If not, then what would it take before the end of let's say June, when you still have time to readjust plans before the trade deadline?
Am I daydreaming? Sure, a little, why not?
You never know.

I'm just dealing in opinion here, and I'm glad we can do something here just for fun. In my opinion, there is no world where I would not trade Helsley, Fedde, and Matz at the deadline. I certainly think Arenado can and should be moved at the deadline, but he could stay if the return is not there. As I have said in other threads, we should aim for bigger targets. We should be willing to bundle any of these guys together or use some young players to bundle in order to get 2-3 difference makers. Don't make trades where we take back 2-3 lottery picks and hope one hits. (What did Grandma say about playing the lottery?) No matter what this team looks like in June or July, it is a mirage. They are not (yet) ready for prime time. Get some difference makers to go with the solid pieces we have. If you've read The Three Little Pigs, be the third pig.

[Carp4Cy]

It’s a weak division and the Cubs are due to come back to earth. Ownership should take advantage of our position and compete every year possible instead of mailing it in and over exposing “youngsters” without a plus ceiling.

Yes, its a weak division. But isn't it a contradiction to say they are over exposing youngsters without a plus ceiling when those youngsters have them in second place? How do you or they know they don't have a plus ceiling without exposing them? Did you think Liberatore would look like a #2 starter at this point in the season? Did you think Victor Scott II would be hitting 290 and playing gold glove defense after the way he played last year? Sure, they are not all performing. But to say they don't have plus ceilings is potentially selling a player short. Lets see where this goes this year. If they hang around for playoff contention, MO can go get a reliever or two at the deadline.

We can and should get more than a couple relievers at the deadlines if we are still in the mix. There's plenty of dry powder BDW has squirreled away as well as borderline players we could swap out for upgrades. Yes Noot, Scott and Winn are part of this run, and we can build around them and some others, as well as Willson, Gray, maybe Nado, etc. But just because Gorman isn't 30 yet doesn't mean we can't ever call it and decide we can do better with someone else. He's never going to be Arenado or Witt Jr.

But if there's a chance to compete in the playoffs, we should go all in regardless of what the "plan" was. Take advantage of Libby and Gray and McGreevy and Leahy and Helsley and whoever else is contributing while we have them all here -and add to it to get us to the next level.

If we simply wait on the next generation of prospects to develop - several of our current contributors will have moved on by then and we will still be treading water - just kinda replacing lost talent instead of adding marginal improvement. We are going to have to add from outside to get enough better to really win, but we just might be close enough to actually make those moves and give it a real try.

I don't know what you mean by going all in if we can get into the playoffs. I see the situation like this.

1. If they are in playoff contention and there are no significant injuries or changes to current player results, I would try to trade Fedde for a future arm and have McGreevy in the rotation. I would try to trade Gorman to a non-contender for a 7th inning guy hopefully with at least 2 years of control. If a minor leaguer like Prieto or someone like that can get another reliever great. I can't see them doing much more than that to shore up this team given the strategy.

2. Whether they are in contention or not, if they get a huge offer for Helsley, they may need to move him. In particular if they cannot extend him or have no intention of doing so. He could fetch a top 5 prospect from a contender that needs a closer. That could have a huge impact on the teams future success.

3. If they fall out of contention, then a firesale of Helsley, Fedde, Matz and hopefully Arenado to the Dodgers since Muncy appears to be done there. In that case, I would let Gorman and Saggese finish out the season. If Gorman is still failing by year end, try to make a change of scenery trade with him over the winter. The only issue with trading all three of those arms is whether they have the arms to cover the remaining innings in the season. If they do that, the end of the season will be ugly.

I would like to see them do more if they are in contention as well. But given the plan and the lack of prospects in the minors, it is hard to see them doing a lot. If Walker continues to fail, my next question is whether Herrera can play the OF. If he can next year, that changes the dynamic of this line-up a lot. But as of now, Jimmy Crooks is not exactly tearing it up in Memphis. So if Herrera goes to the OF, we might have Pages and Pozo behind the plate again next year, which is not awful. They still have too many moving pieces at this point to figure out to really be a true contender. But you never know, maybe the team gels like the Blues did.

If we are truly in contention then we shouldn't be trading a desirable SP for a future prospect. That would just make another playoff team that we might have to face better and make our chances harder. Smart teams don't do that. If we need to make a trade off the MLB roster we need to get back producing MLB players to at least make the team we traded with a little worse off and a little easier to beat.

But the way Fedde pitched today - with a 3 handle ERA - maybe we should consider extending him instead. He's not expensive and he's not old. And his 3.45 ERA over the past 2 seasons might well be as good or better than we should reasonably expect from McGreevy or even Libby over a full season.