When everybody is back, what's your lineup?

[sikeston bulldog2]

Noot - RF
Hererra - DH
Donny - LF
NADO - 3B
WillyC - 1B
Saggese - 2B
Pages/Pozo - C
Winn - SS
VSII - CF

Not bad. Can Herrera handle the two spot. After the first inning, the possibility exists that Scott could be on second base four more times per game.

Absolutely, not only handle but (IMO) Hererra would thrive in the #2 hole!

It's time to stop wasting too many PA's on Burleson, he's nothing but a LHPH'er (I'd deal him).

I know this goes counter to giving Gorman & Walker 500 PA's but, again JMO but we may know who they are and they're not going to get much better.

It’s possible they are and will only be who they have become. Is that enough? That’s a real tough cut.

Every team has player like Gorman & Walker, hyped up but never live up to it.

How much time is enough? or Too much?

Who knows but I'm not seeing any improvement at the plate (although Walkers defense in RF has dramatically improved to where he's now league average and not hurting the team).

Unfortunately Walker's ceiling (IMO) is J. Heyward w/o the great defense in RF.

Gorman just doesn't make enough contact any more, not sure where he's going.

Walker won’t get worse on defense reference ability. Once you can do it it’s not hard to repeat. Think bycycling. As for hitting. May never happen.

So is his good to better than league average defense enough to keep him a starter.

[rockondlouie]

Noot - RF
Hererra - DH
Donny - LF
NADO - 3B
WillyC - 1B
Saggese - 2B
Pages/Pozo - C
Winn - SS
VSII - CF

Not bad. Can Herrera handle the two spot. After the first inning, the possibility exists that Scott could be on second base four more times per game.

Absolutely, not only handle but (IMO) Hererra would thrive in the #2 hole!

It's time to stop wasting too many PA's on Burleson, he's nothing but a LHPH'er (I'd deal him).

I know this goes counter to giving Gorman & Walker 500 PA's but, again JMO but we may know who they are and they're not going to get much better.

It’s possible they are and will only be who they have become. Is that enough? That’s a real tough cut.

Every team has player like Gorman & Walker, hyped up but never live up to it.

How much time is enough? or Too much?

Who knows but I'm not seeing any improvement at the plate (although Walkers defense in RF has dramatically improved to where he's now league average and not hurting the team).

Unfortunately Walker's ceiling (IMO) is J. Heyward w/o the great defense in RF.

Gorman just doesn't make enough contact any more, not sure where he's going.

Walker won’t get worse on defense reference ability. Once you can do it it’s not hard to repeat. Think bycycling. As for hitting. May never happen.

So is his good to better than league average defense enough to keep him a starter.

Not IMO.

Unless he can put up a near .800 OPS, then you have to look for an offensive upgrade and he becomes a fourth OF'er or trade bait (along w/Gorman).

[sikeston bulldog2]

Noot - RF
Hererra - DH
Donny - LF
NADO - 3B
WillyC - 1B
Saggese - 2B
Pages/Pozo - C
Winn - SS
VSII - CF

Not bad. Can Herrera handle the two spot. After the first inning, the possibility exists that Scott could be on second base four more times per game.

Absolutely, not only handle but (IMO) Hererra would thrive in the #2 hole!

It's time to stop wasting too many PA's on Burleson, he's nothing but a LHPH'er (I'd deal him).

I know this goes counter to giving Gorman & Walker 500 PA's but, again JMO but we may know who they are and they're not going to get much better.

It’s possible they are and will only be who they have become. Is that enough? That’s a real tough cut.

Every team has player like Gorman & Walker, hyped up but never live up to it.

How much time is enough? or Too much?

Who knows but I'm not seeing any improvement at the plate (although Walkers defense in RF has dramatically improved to where he's now league average and not hurting the team).

Unfortunately Walker's ceiling (IMO) is J. Heyward w/o the great defense in RF.

Gorman just doesn't make enough contact any more, not sure where he's going.

Walker won’t get worse on defense reference ability. Once you can do it it’s not hard to repeat. Think bycycling. As for hitting. May never happen.

So is his good to better than league average defense enough to keep him a starter.

Not IMO.

Unless he can put up a near .800 OPS, then you have to look for an offensive upgrade and he becomes a fourth OF'er or trade bait (along w/Gorman).

Ok.

[renostl]

If the goal is to use 2025 to make decisions for 2026 and belong, nothing has changed other than the fact Saggese should get more time and Mootbaar less.

Against RH starting pitchers:
Scott - CF
Winn - SS
Donovan - LF
Contreras -1B
Burleson - DH
Saggese - 2B
Gorman - 3B
Pages/Herrera - C
Walker - RF

Bench:
Arenado
Mootbaar
Siani
Note: N/A and Moot could start against LH pitching until each is traded.

Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Current rank among Card's qualified hitters for Noot:

OPS - 3rd
HR - 2nd
RBI - 2nd
Runs - 2nd
Hits - 3rd
BB - 1st
OBP - 2nd
SLG - 3rd

Now...why does he go to the bench?

For the same reason as N/A.
STL needs the lineup this year to play for future considerations - and Mootbaar simply does not belong in that equation.
He is the same as he has always been - profiles best as a 4th outfielder/platoon/bench player.
Winn, Scott, Saggese, Gorman, Walker must get the PA's.
No choice but to find out what those 5 can do in 2025.
Donovan - as I alone correctly said for years - is and will always be better than Moot.
Which leaves Moot (with his April .212 BA and .303 SLG) odd man out - competing primarily with Burleson for playing time, getting match-up starts, coming off the bench (a good fit for his "walk first" mentality), etc.
Plenty of AB's for him - but not as a starter.
STL should have traded him when I advised.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Future considerations?
Donovan all by himself has many questions marks about how he fits in the Cardinals future.
This is only speaking to the way the Cards value the moderately paid veteran, not my value.
You're also putting Burleson in as the future. Odd. Especially when he takes bats away from a guy on your list that needs to
show in Gorman. He is an absolute block of opportunity to Gorman and with known limitations.

LN is a 4th OFer as soon as the Cards have enough that makes him a 4th OFer. It can happen, absolutely,
but doesn't need to happen by myself or you at a keyboard. Besides even IF a trade of Nootbaar is ideal, by your assessment,
he hasn't done anything of substance, wouldn't he bring back more if allowed to?

Of the 5 players mentioned. It would absolutely be nice to find out more on all of them.
Odds that they all get a final assessment seems improbable; we may just learn a bit more on each.

IMO, Gorman is the only one who has a ticking clock of 2025.
Winn we know enough, average to better bat good glove, and he'll get plenty opportunity anyway.
Scott good glove with attributes.as a CFer the bat bar is low, and currently his bat as a CF is the highest in the Cards.
Saggese, Does a rookie have to prove it in his rookie season?
Walker is such a work in progress. Waxing and waning comfort levels at the plate. Even if he ends up with a C grade in 2025 he's young enough
for more time and will get it until it given to another player.
Gorman does have to show something this season. Donovan, Saggese, and JJ who we both know will get at least the
runway that Gorman had in front of him in 2022. Gorman absolutely has a clock. He could perform well and still not
be in the Cardinals future considerations.

To the question though 2 spots are all that needs to be cleared when everyone is back.

Pozo easily unless Herrera can't go back to the squat and Baker seem the obvious easy answer.
Saggese, Siani, or Burleson could also happen. Burleson I'd welcome but be surprised.

[riff raff]

Noot
Herera-dh
Donovan
nado
Willson
walker
pages
scott
winn

[Melville]

If the goal is to use 2025 to make decisions for 2026 and belong, nothing has changed other than the fact Saggese should get more time and Mootbaar less.

Against RH starting pitchers:
Scott - CF
Winn - SS
Donovan - LF
Contreras -1B
Burleson - DH
Saggese - 2B
Gorman - 3B
Pages/Herrera - C
Walker - RF

Bench:
Arenado
Mootbaar
Siani
Note: N/A and Moot could start against LH pitching until each is traded.

Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Current rank among Card's qualified hitters for Noot:

OPS - 3rd
HR - 2nd
RBI - 2nd
Runs - 2nd
Hits - 3rd
BB - 1st
OBP - 2nd
SLG - 3rd

Now...why does he go to the bench?

For the same reason as N/A.
STL needs the lineup this year to play for future considerations - and Mootbaar simply does not belong in that equation.
He is the same as he has always been - profiles best as a 4th outfielder/platoon/bench player.
Winn, Scott, Saggese, Gorman, Walker must get the PA's.
No choice but to find out what those 5 can do in 2025.
Donovan - as I alone correctly said for years - is and will always be better than Moot.
Which leaves Moot (with his April .212 BA and .303 SLG) odd man out - competing primarily with Burleson for playing time, getting match-up starts, coming off the bench (a good fit for his "walk first" mentality), etc.
Plenty of AB's for him - but not as a starter.
STL should have traded him when I advised.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

You're so wrong. Sad you can't admit it.

Difficult.
Oblivious.
Incorrect.

No team serious about being a contender would put Mootbaar into any consideration for a key role.
I was right about The Paper Tyler.
Right about The Poser.
And I am 100% correct about Lars the Human Sushi-baar.
Time after time the team puts its blind hope in the wrong players wanting them to be more than they are capable of.
They keep getting it wrong.
I never do.

Melville, do you feel Saggese is the real deal? If so, won't it be Saggese at 2B, Wetherholt at 3B and Winn at SS for the next number of seasons? With Donovan moving to LF. Any chance the Cardinals would consider moving Gorman to 1B to try to fit all the talented young infielders into the lineup?

Certainly promising.
I do like the fact that he approached the plate with an intention to hit the ball and has a plan for doing so.
As for the future, Mootbaar and Arenado are simply in the way.
STL must move both as quickly as possible.
Once that is done, 2b, ss, 3b, LF, and DH roles can be sorted about between Wetherholt, Saggese, Winn, Gorman, and Donovan.
STL does not have a logjam.
They simply have 2 players who need to play elsewhere which will allow the home team to develop as needed.

[renostl]

Noot
Herera-dh
Donovan
nado
Willson
walker
pages
scott
winn

At this time it is probably as good as any when Pages is the C.
When IH is C, either Saggese or Gorman DH. Maybe bat in Walkers spot.

[riff raff]

Noot
Herera-dh
Donovan
nado
Willson
walker
pages
scott
winn

At this time it is probably as good as any when Pages is the C.
When IH is C, either Saggese or Gorman DH. Maybe bat in Walkers spot.

Yeah, it's time for Gorman to get a good shot which should be when Herera catches.
S or get off the pot time for him.

[renostl]

If the goal is to use 2025 to make decisions for 2026 and belong, nothing has changed other than the fact Saggese should get more time and Mootbaar less.

Against RH starting pitchers:
Scott - CF
Winn - SS
Donovan - LF
Contreras -1B
Burleson - DH
Saggese - 2B
Gorman - 3B
Pages/Herrera - C
Walker - RF

Bench:
Arenado
Mootbaar
Siani
Note: N/A and Moot could start against LH pitching until each is traded.

Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Current rank among Card's qualified hitters for Noot:

OPS - 3rd
HR - 2nd
RBI - 2nd
Runs - 2nd
Hits - 3rd
BB - 1st
OBP - 2nd
SLG - 3rd

Now...why does he go to the bench?

For the same reason as N/A.
STL needs the lineup this year to play for future considerations - and Mootbaar simply does not belong in that equation.
He is the same as he has always been - profiles best as a 4th outfielder/platoon/bench player.
Winn, Scott, Saggese, Gorman, Walker must get the PA's.
No choice but to find out what those 5 can do in 2025.
Donovan - as I alone correctly said for years - is and will always be better than Moot.
Which leaves Moot (with his April .212 BA and .303 SLG) odd man out - competing primarily with Burleson for playing time, getting match-up starts, coming off the bench (a good fit for his "walk first" mentality), etc.
Plenty of AB's for him - but not as a starter.
STL should have traded him when I advised.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

You're so wrong. Sad you can't admit it.

Difficult.
Oblivious.
Incorrect.

No team serious about being a contender would put Mootbaar into any consideration for a key role.
I was right about The Paper Tyler.
Right about The Poser.
And I am 100% correct about Lars the Human Sushi-baar.
Time after time the team puts its blind hope in the wrong players wanting them to be more than they are capable of.
They keep getting it wrong.
I never do.

Melville, do you feel Saggese is the real deal? If so, won't it be Saggese at 2B, Wetherholt at 3B and Winn at SS for the next number of seasons? With Donovan moving to LF. Any chance the Cardinals would consider moving Gorman to 1B to try to fit all the talented young infielders into the lineup?

Certainly promising.
I do like the fact that he approached the plate with an intention to hit the ball and has a plan for doing so.
As for the future, Mootbaar and Arenado are simply in the way.
STL must move both as quickly as possible.
Once that is done, 2b, ss, 3b, LF, and DH roles can be sorted about between Wetherholt, Saggese, Winn, Gorman, and Donovan.
STL does not have a logjam.
They simply have 2 players who need to play elsewhere which will allow the home team to develop as needed.

JJ isn't here yet, not a 2025 issue anyway.

At this time, 2025, fringe MLB players are as much in the way as the 2 you keep mentioning. Clearing Baker, Siani
open 2 spots. All that's needed. Add Burleson at least a maybe, although an ok platoon 1B. OR a NA possible trade
3 spots.

To Shadys Q, I may like following a C to 1B with another C with Herrera.

Until Walker shows, it's an unforced error to get rid of even 4th outfielder production. Siani?
give me a break. VS is a known, not quite.
Not having a 4th OF has been an unforced error for this team for a while. In my view even if you are
correct with Nootbaar, it's against your prior criticisms of the FO. Until Donnie no longer has value on the infield he can't
play 2 positions at the same time. Another problem St Louis does have is too many OFers in 2025.

[ScotchMIrish]

1 - Brock LF
2 - McGee CF
3 - Musial RF
4 - Pujols 1b
5 - Boyer 3b
6 - Molina C
7 - Schoendienst 2b
8 - Smith SS

[Shady]

1 - Brock LF
2 - McGee CF
3 - Musial RF
4 - Pujols 1b
5 - Boyer 3b
6 - Molina C
7 - Schoendienst 2b
8 - Smith SS

And Simmons DH

[rockondlouie]

1 - Brock LF
2 - McGee CF
3 - Musial RF
4 - Pujols 1b
5 - Boyer 3b
6 - Molina C
7 - Schoendienst 2b
8 - Smith SS

Hornsby - 2B

[ScotchMIrish]

1 - Brock LF
2 - McGee CF
3 - Musial RF
4 - Pujols 1b
5 - Boyer 3b
6 - Molina C
7 - Schoendienst 2b
8 - Smith SS

Hornsby - 2B

Different era.

[Melville]

If the goal is to use 2025 to make decisions for 2026 and belong, nothing has changed other than the fact Saggese should get more time and Mootbaar less.

Against RH starting pitchers:
Scott - CF
Winn - SS
Donovan - LF
Contreras -1B
Burleson - DH
Saggese - 2B
Gorman - 3B
Pages/Herrera - C
Walker - RF

Bench:
Arenado
Mootbaar
Siani
Note: N/A and Moot could start against LH pitching until each is traded.

Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Current rank among Card's qualified hitters for Noot:

OPS - 3rd
HR - 2nd
RBI - 2nd
Runs - 2nd
Hits - 3rd
BB - 1st
OBP - 2nd
SLG - 3rd

Now...why does he go to the bench?

For the same reason as N/A.
STL needs the lineup this year to play for future considerations - and Mootbaar simply does not belong in that equation.
He is the same as he has always been - profiles best as a 4th outfielder/platoon/bench player.
Winn, Scott, Saggese, Gorman, Walker must get the PA's.
No choice but to find out what those 5 can do in 2025.
Donovan - as I alone correctly said for years - is and will always be better than Moot.
Which leaves Moot (with his April .212 BA and .303 SLG) odd man out - competing primarily with Burleson for playing time, getting match-up starts, coming off the bench (a good fit for his "walk first" mentality), etc.
Plenty of AB's for him - but not as a starter.
STL should have traded him when I advised.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

You're so wrong. Sad you can't admit it.

Difficult.
Oblivious.
Incorrect.

No team serious about being a contender would put Mootbaar into any consideration for a key role.
I was right about The Paper Tyler.
Right about The Poser.
And I am 100% correct about Lars the Human Sushi-baar.
Time after time the team puts its blind hope in the wrong players wanting them to be more than they are capable of.
They keep getting it wrong.
I never do.

Melville, do you feel Saggese is the real deal? If so, won't it be Saggese at 2B, Wetherholt at 3B and Winn at SS for the next number of seasons? With Donovan moving to LF. Any chance the Cardinals would consider moving Gorman to 1B to try to fit all the talented young infielders into the lineup?

Certainly promising.
I do like the fact that he approached the plate with an intention to hit the ball and has a plan for doing so.
As for the future, Mootbaar and Arenado are simply in the way.
STL must move both as quickly as possible.
Once that is done, 2b, ss, 3b, LF, and DH roles can be sorted about between Wetherholt, Saggese, Winn, Gorman, and Donovan.
STL does not have a logjam.
They simply have 2 players who need to play elsewhere which will allow the home team to develop as needed.

JJ isn't here yet, not a 2025 issue anyway.

At this time, 2025, fringe MLB players are as much in the way as the 2 you keep mentioning. Clearing Baker, Siani
open 2 spots. All that's needed. Add Burleson at least a maybe, although an ok platoon 1B. OR a NA possible trade
3 spots.

To Shadys Q, I may like following a C to 1B with another C with Herrera.

Until Walker shows, it's an unforced error to get rid of even 4th outfielder production. Siani?
give me a break. VS is a known, not quite.
Not having a 4th OF has been an unforced error for this team for a while. In my view even if you are
correct with Nootbaar, it's against your prior criticisms of the FO. Until Donnie no longer has value on the infield he can't
play 2 positions at the same time. Another problem St Louis does have is too many OFers in 2025.

Baker and Siani are not relevant to the conversation due to the limited role each plays.
Every team has a guy or two at the end of the bench.
Mootbaar, by being anointed a presumptive starter even though there is zero justification for it does nothing other than take PA's from someone STL needs to give extended looks.
The obvious answer all along was to move Mootbaar out of STL and position Donovan in the outfield in his place (adding a RH outfield bat was also necessary but ignored - and last off-season was the perfect time to require Herrera to make that transition).
N/A also needs to go.
Saggese, Winn, Gorman needs the PA's right now - and Wetherholt will be in STL next season as well.
None of this is difficult.
Super Slo Mo simply is not up to the task - and has not been for many years now.
Two added quick points.
One, Mootbaar is well on his way to proving me 100% correct again this season.
Two, (though not part of this conversation directly, sure would have been good if the POBO and manager had decided to keep a backup SS on the roster - not doing so cost them a game tonight and is but one of many examples of just how incompetent they are at assembling a roster.

[renostl]

If the goal is to use 2025 to make decisions for 2026 and belong, nothing has changed other than the fact Saggese should get more time and Mootbaar less.

Against RH starting pitchers:
Scott - CF
Winn - SS
Donovan - LF
Contreras -1B
Burleson - DH
Saggese - 2B
Gorman - 3B
Pages/Herrera - C
Walker - RF

Bench:
Arenado
Mootbaar
Siani
Note: N/A and Moot could start against LH pitching until each is traded.

Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Current rank among Card's qualified hitters for Noot:

OPS - 3rd
HR - 2nd
RBI - 2nd
Runs - 2nd
Hits - 3rd
BB - 1st
OBP - 2nd
SLG - 3rd

Now...why does he go to the bench?

For the same reason as N/A.
STL needs the lineup this year to play for future considerations - and Mootbaar simply does not belong in that equation.
He is the same as he has always been - profiles best as a 4th outfielder/platoon/bench player.
Winn, Scott, Saggese, Gorman, Walker must get the PA's.
No choice but to find out what those 5 can do in 2025.
Donovan - as I alone correctly said for years - is and will always be better than Moot.
Which leaves Moot (with his April .212 BA and .303 SLG) odd man out - competing primarily with Burleson for playing time, getting match-up starts, coming off the bench (a good fit for his "walk first" mentality), etc.
Plenty of AB's for him - but not as a starter.
STL should have traded him when I advised.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

You're so wrong. Sad you can't admit it.

Difficult.
Oblivious.
Incorrect.

No team serious about being a contender would put Mootbaar into any consideration for a key role.
I was right about The Paper Tyler.
Right about The Poser.
And I am 100% correct about Lars the Human Sushi-baar.
Time after time the team puts its blind hope in the wrong players wanting them to be more than they are capable of.
They keep getting it wrong.
I never do.

Melville, do you feel Saggese is the real deal? If so, won't it be Saggese at 2B, Wetherholt at 3B and Winn at SS for the next number of seasons? With Donovan moving to LF. Any chance the Cardinals would consider moving Gorman to 1B to try to fit all the talented young infielders into the lineup?

Certainly promising.
I do like the fact that he approached the plate with an intention to hit the ball and has a plan for doing so.
As for the future, Mootbaar and Arenado are simply in the way.
STL must move both as quickly as possible.
Once that is done, 2b, ss, 3b, LF, and DH roles can be sorted about between Wetherholt, Saggese, Winn, Gorman, and Donovan.
STL does not have a logjam.
They simply have 2 players who need to play elsewhere which will allow the home team to develop as needed.

JJ isn't here yet, not a 2025 issue anyway.

At this time, 2025, fringe MLB players are as much in the way as the 2 you keep mentioning. Clearing Baker, Siani
open 2 spots. All that's needed. Add Burleson at least a maybe, although an ok platoon 1B. OR a NA possible trade
3 spots.

To Shadys Q, I may like following a C to 1B with another C with Herrera.

Until Walker shows, it's an unforced error to get rid of even 4th outfielder production. Siani?
give me a break. VS is a known, not quite.
Not having a 4th OF has been an unforced error for this team for a while. In my view even if you are
correct with Nootbaar, it's against your prior criticisms of the FO. Until Donnie no longer has value on the infield he can't
play 2 positions at the same time. Another problem St Louis does have is too many OFers in 2025.

Baker and Siani are not relevant to the conversation due to the limited role each plays.
Every team has a guy or two at the end of the bench.
Mootbaar, by being anointed a presumptive starter even though there is zero justification for it does nothing other than take PA's from someone STL needs to give extended looks.
The obvious answer all along was to move Mootbaar out of STL and position Donovan in the outfield in his place (adding a RH outfield bat was also necessary but ignored - and last off-season was the perfect time to require Herrera to make that transition).
N/A also needs to go.
Saggese, Winn, Gorman needs the PA's right now - and Wetherholt will be in STL next season as well.
None of this is difficult.
Super Slo Mo simply is not up to the task - and has not been for many years now.
Two added quick points.
One, Mootbaar is well on his way to proving me 100% correct again this season.
Two, (though not part of this conversation directly, sure would have been good if the POBO and manager had decided to keep a backup SS on the roster - not doing so cost them a game tonight and is but one of many examples of just how incompetent they are at assembling a roster.

If we are concerned about how everyone fits when both Winn and Herrera return then every spot does indeed matter and relevant.
The end of the bench could have Saggese on it getting far more time than Baker or Siani because he would be a player that has more use, more value, such as possibly supplying that second short stop. While not ideal as a SS he would be receiving the goal of PT.
Wanting players traded whoever their name is won't be happening before those 2 return. Trades may be months away.
That is Very relevant for the men at the end of the bench may be taking a months of MLB playing time away from players you like to see get PT.