CardinalInNC wrote: ↑18 Apr 2025 21:13 pm
And I normally don't spend too much time ripping on Marmol compared to others, but his constant sending this useless unreliable hack out there to pitch every time the game is on the line is getting so ridiculous he deserves to be cut a new one for doing it.
#64 singlehandedly loses games out there
Other than Helsley who is the closer, who's left?
Well he pulled King after only facing one man in the 5th.
The players need to perform but Oli flat out doesn’t have it.
If the young guys get a chance and they can that goof I’ll be happy regardless of finish.
Had Maton not given up the unearned run (his error), Helsley would have pitched the bottom of the 9th with a 1 run lead for the save. We've got an execution problem more than a 2d guessing Oli problem tonight.
King does have a 2+ whip after all. Not sure how long you wanted him in the game.
I was just responding to a question asked by another.
Hindsight is always 20/20!
With 6 SP’s you are reduced 1 BP arm to 7.
Mikolas starts to struggle in the 5th. Need more length but do you pull him?
I think Oli did the right thing there. King got the lefty.
Now...do you let him start the 6th to try and get a few more batters?
I don’t remember who was up but he brought in Leahy who had been very good.
He gave up a run. Again using hindsight.
Romero in the 7th made sense. As did Maton in the 8th( he has been outstanding).
I can’t really question Oli until the ninth.
I can see holding back Helsley for hopefully the save in the 10th if they score the ghost runner.
If the bottom of the order? Maybe? But their best hitters.
Wasn’t ME-ville wanting to save Helsley for the 10th?
Again hindsight.
Call it hindsight if you want.
What it boils down to is who do you trust a back end BP guy like Fernandez in the late innings with the game on the line or Mikolas in the 5th?
You can't keep running out 4-5 pitchers every game especially with this bullpen and expect to be successful.
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. Teams like the Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options; just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. The Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options, just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
I'm all for bring up T. Roby and putting him in the pen' as the long man who can go 2+ innings.
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. The Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options, just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
I'm all for bring up T. Roby and putting him in the pen' as the long man who can go 2+ innings.
It's an option, but aren't we just postponing his arrival to the majors as a starter. I don't know what putting him in the pen might inject regarding injury. But, he has the stuff and if we want to bet on 2025 we need solutions like that. I'd love to explore other options before taking out a prospective starter, but we need to do it quickly. Fernandez isn't gonna hold off the dogs.
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. The Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options, just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
I'm all for bring up T. Roby and putting him in the pen' as the long man who can go 2+ innings.
It's an option, but aren't we just postponing his arrival to the majors as a starter. I don't know what putting him in the pen might inject regarding injury. But, he has the stuff and if we want to bet on 2025 we need solutions like that. I'd love to explore other options before taking out a prospective starter, but we need to do it quickly. Fernandez isn't gonna hold off the dogs.
I'm not sold he can stay health enough to be a starter huge.
He's already had multiple injuries that has shut him down.
He's thrown 4 inning in each of his three starts, he could almost do that up here out of the pen' a couple times a week.
Kids got KO stuff, something this pen' needs.
No reason he can't pitch out of the pen' up here this season, help the Cardinals and still be in contention to start (possibly) in 2026.
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. The Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options, just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
I'm all for bring up T. Roby and putting him in the pen' as the long man who can go 2+ innings.
It's an option, but aren't we just postponing his arrival to the majors as a starter. I don't know what putting him in the pen might inject regarding injury. But, he has the stuff and if we want to bet on 2025 we need solutions like that. I'd love to explore other options before taking out a prospective starter, but we need to do it quickly. Fernandez isn't gonna hold off the dogs.
I'm not sold he can stay health enough to be a starter huge.
He's already had multiple injuries that has shut him down.
He's thrown 4 inning in each of his three starts, he could almost do that up here out of the pen' a couple times a week.
Kids got KO stuff, something this pen' needs.
No reason he can't pitch out of the pen' up here this season, help the Cardinals and still be in contention to start (possibly) in 2026.
Just a thought
Nothing that you say is wrong. But, with our starter issues coming up the next couple years, wouldn't it be nice if we could get Roby to 5 innings by summer and 6 by the fall? He could be ready to start next year with so much promise and will have worked on all of his pitches rather than the top two.
I'd love to see Robberse promoted to the pen. His fastball won't get it as a starter, IMO, but he has 2 plus plus offspeed pitches that I think can cause nightmares for big league hitters.
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. The Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options, just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
I'm all for bring up T. Roby and putting him in the pen' as the long man who can go 2+ innings.
It's an option, but aren't we just postponing his arrival to the majors as a starter. I don't know what putting him in the pen might inject regarding injury. But, he has the stuff and if we want to bet on 2025 we need solutions like that. I'd love to explore other options before taking out a prospective starter, but we need to do it quickly. Fernandez isn't gonna hold off the dogs.
I'm not sold he can stay health enough to be a starter huge.
He's already had multiple injuries that has shut him down.
He's thrown 4 inning in each of his three starts, he could almost do that up here out of the pen' a couple times a week.
Kids got KO stuff, something this pen' needs.
No reason he can't pitch out of the pen' up here this season, help the Cardinals and still be in contention to start (possibly) in 2026.
Just a thought
Nothing that you say is wrong. But, with our starter issues coming up the next couple years, wouldn't it be nice if we could get Roby to 5 innings by summer and 6 by the fall? He could be ready to start next year with so much promise and will have worked on all of his pitches rather than the top two.
I'd love to see Robberse promoted to the pen. His fastball won't get it as a starter, IMO, but he has 2 plus plus offspeed pitches that I think can cause nightmares for big league hitters.
IF, BIG IF you told me he stayed healthy, then absolutely I'd go for that.
But injuries limited him to just 58 1/3 innings in 2023 and 38 1/3 inning in 2024.
That low total is on top of other injuries and he hasn't topped 100+ innings since 2022.
I'd bring him up and put him in the pen' where his future may be (I also think the same move is in T. Hence's future for the same reasons).
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. The Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options, just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
I'm all for bring up T. Roby and putting him in the pen' as the long man who can go 2+ innings.
It's an option, but aren't we just postponing his arrival to the majors as a starter. I don't know what putting him in the pen might inject regarding injury. But, he has the stuff and if we want to bet on 2025 we need solutions like that. I'd love to explore other options before taking out a prospective starter, but we need to do it quickly. Fernandez isn't gonna hold off the dogs.
I'm not sold he can stay health enough to be a starter huge.
He's already had multiple injuries that has shut him down.
He's thrown 4 inning in each of his three starts, he could almost do that up here out of the pen' a couple times a week.
Kids got KO stuff, something this pen' needs.
No reason he can't pitch out of the pen' up here this season, help the Cardinals and still be in contention to start (possibly) in 2026.
Just a thought
Nothing that you say is wrong. But, with our starter issues coming up the next couple years, wouldn't it be nice if we could get Roby to 5 innings by summer and 6 by the fall? He could be ready to start next year with so much promise and will have worked on all of his pitches rather than the top two.
I'd love to see Robberse promoted to the pen. His fastball won't get it as a starter, IMO, but he has 2 plus plus offspeed pitches that I think can cause nightmares for big league hitters.
IF, BIG IF you told me he stayed healthy, then absolutely I'd go for that.
But injuries limited him to just 58 1/3 innings in 2023 and 38 1/3 inning in 2024.
That low total is on top of other injuries and he hasn't topped 100+ innings since 2022.
I'd bring him up and put him in the pen' where his future may be (I also think the same move is in T. Hence's future for the same reasons).
I'm not a Robberse fan, he's a "meh" to me.
All you've seen Robberse do is start. IMO he doesn't have the fastball for it. But, he needs to be looked at as a reliever, even if only done in the minors this year. He can't key off the FB, he has to key off the offspeed.
I think Roby is a starter. If the decision is to make him a reliever, I can live with that, but, don't see him returning to starting. It's a big decision on a player with so much stuff.
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. The Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options, just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
I'm all for bring up T. Roby and putting him in the pen' as the long man who can go 2+ innings.
It's an option, but aren't we just postponing his arrival to the majors as a starter. I don't know what putting him in the pen might inject regarding injury. But, he has the stuff and if we want to bet on 2025 we need solutions like that. I'd love to explore other options before taking out a prospective starter, but we need to do it quickly. Fernandez isn't gonna hold off the dogs.
I'm not sold he can stay health enough to be a starter huge.
He's already had multiple injuries that has shut him down.
He's thrown 4 inning in each of his three starts, he could almost do that up here out of the pen' a couple times a week.
Kids got KO stuff, something this pen' needs.
No reason he can't pitch out of the pen' up here this season, help the Cardinals and still be in contention to start (possibly) in 2026.
Just a thought
Nothing that you say is wrong. But, with our starter issues coming up the next couple years, wouldn't it be nice if we could get Roby to 5 innings by summer and 6 by the fall? He could be ready to start next year with so much promise and will have worked on all of his pitches rather than the top two.
I'd love to see Robberse promoted to the pen. His fastball won't get it as a starter, IMO, but he has 2 plus plus offspeed pitches that I think can cause nightmares for big league hitters.
IF, BIG IF you told me he stayed healthy, then absolutely I'd go for that.
But injuries limited him to just 58 1/3 innings in 2023 and 38 1/3 inning in 2024.
That low total is on top of other injuries and he hasn't topped 100+ innings since 2022.
I'd bring him up and put him in the pen' where his future may be (I also think the same move is in T. Hence's future for the same reasons).
I'm not a Robberse fan, he's a "meh" to me.
All you've seen Robberse do is start. IMO he doesn't have the fastball for it. But, he needs to be looked at as a reliever, even if only done in the minors this year. He can't key off the FB, he has to key off the offspeed.
I think Roby is a starter. If the decision is to make him a reliever, I can live with that, but, don't see him returning to starting. It's a big decision on a player with so much stuff.
Hey we're desperate for RP''s so I'm up for any move, even seeing if Robberse could do it.
Roby and Hence have the same issue, health.
Loads of talent but can their bodies withstand the rigors of starting in MLB?
Thus far the answer is screaming, "NO"!
Hences power 99 mph fastball coupled w/a great change-up reminds me of D. Williams, I think he's the natural replacement for R. Helsley and wish they'd covert him to that role at AAA this season to prep him for 2026.
Roby?
I bring him up here and throw him in the pen', I just think we have four plus years of proof he can't stay healthy as a starter.
How many more years are they going to keep him in minor league baseball "hoping" he stays healthy enough to start?
Hey we're desperate for RP''s so I'm up for any move, even seeing if Robberse could do it.
Roby and Hence have the same issue, health.
Loads of talent but can their bodies withstand the rigors of starting in MLB?
Thus far the answer is screaming, "NO"!
Hences power 99 mph fastball coupled w/a great change-up reminds me of D. Williams, I think he's the natural replacement for R. Helsley and wish they'd covert him to that role at AAA this season to prep him for 2026.
Roby?
I bring him up here and throw him in the pen', I just think we have four plus years of proof he can't stay healthy as a starter.
How many more years are they going to keep him in minor league baseball "hoping" he stays healthy enough to start?
I agree wholeheartedly on Tink. Just not there yet on Roby. The problem with relievers is to get them to sustain themselves year after year.
Hey we're desperate for RP''s so I'm up for any move, even seeing if Robberse could do it.
Roby and Hence have the same issue, health.
Loads of talent but can their bodies withstand the rigors of starting in MLB?
Thus far the answer is screaming, "NO"!
Hences power 99 mph fastball coupled w/a great change-up reminds me of D. Williams, I think he's the natural replacement for R. Helsley and wish they'd covert him to that role at AAA this season to prep him for 2026.
Roby?
I bring him up here and throw him in the pen', I just think we have four plus years of proof he can't stay healthy as a starter.
How many more years are they going to keep him in minor league baseball "hoping" he stays healthy enough to start?
I agree wholeheartedly on Tink. Just not there yet on Roby. The problem with relievers is to get them to sustain themselves year after year.
CardinalInNC wrote: ↑18 Apr 2025 21:13 pm
And I normally don't spend too much time ripping on Marmol compared to others, but his constant sending this useless unreliable hack out there to pitch every time the game is on the line is getting so ridiculous he deserves to be cut a new one for doing it.
#64 singlehandedly loses games out there
Other than Helsley who is the closer, who's left?
Well he pulled King after only facing one man in the 5th.
The players need to perform but Oli flat out doesn’t have it.
If the young guys get a chance and they can that goof I’ll be happy regardless of finish.
Had Maton not given up the unearned run (his error), Helsley would have pitched the bottom of the 9th with a 1 run lead for the save. We've got an execution problem more than a 2d guessing Oli problem tonight.
King does have a 2+ whip after all. Not sure how long you wanted him in the game.
I was just responding to a question asked by another.
Hindsight is always 20/20!
With 6 SP’s you are reduced 1 BP arm to 7.
Mikolas starts to struggle in the 5th. Need more length but do you pull him?
I think Oli did the right thing there. King got the lefty.
Now...do you let him start the 6th to try and get a few more batters?
I don’t remember who was up but he brought in Leahy who had been very good.
He gave up a run. Again using hindsight.
Romero in the 7th made sense. As did Maton in the 8th( he has been outstanding).
I can’t really question Oli until the ninth.
I can see holding back Helsley for hopefully the save in the 10th if they score the ghost runner.
If the bottom of the order? Maybe? But their best hitters.
Wasn’t ME-ville wanting to save Helsley for the 10th?
Again hindsight.
Call it hindsight if you want.
What it boils down to is who do you trust a back end BP guy like Fernandez in the late innings with the game on the line or Mikolas in the 5th?
You can't keep running out 4-5 pitchers every game especially with this bullpen and expect to be successful.
Oh I agree.
In another post I mentioned they are down to 7 in the BP.
I consider Helsley, Maton, Leahy, and Romero to be strong.
He used 3 of them.
Saved Helsley and got burned.
If he had used King in the 6th instead of having him pitch to only one batter it could have eliminated Fernandez in the 9th?
cardsfaninla wrote: ↑18 Apr 2025 21:11 pm
He hasn't been great ... not at all. Still not our biggest problem by a long stretch.
Honestly the bullpen has easily been the biggest overall weakness on this team. Yes we have issues with guys like contreras but out of starting hitting defense or relief as a whole, relief pitching is easily the weakest. Its especially manified with our temporary 6 man rotation pulling matz out of the bullpen. Only maton and helsley have really been great. Jojo has been okay and leahy has been serviceable but they are relying on him too much. We need several people to step up. Too many weak links in pen
I agree the bullpen is weak. Much of the team is weak.
How was Fernandez good enough last year to keep as a rule 5 guy all season and now this season ppl want him gone?
Baseball is a tough mistress.
Relievers are volatile year to year except for the elite ones. Fernandez has had consistency issues all through the minirs. Thats why he was a rule 5 puck and not oritected. He has good enough stuff and last year he was able o get in a groove and harness it for long enough of a strezch of the season. Inthink he actually faded a bit down the stretch though. This year hes off again. Hes a guy who may have good years when he finds a groove but will probably never be consjstent year to year guy.id send him down except we actually need options to replace. We arent likely to trade for much help since this is a rebuild year.
Easy Money, bring back Munoz and kick Fernandez down in his spot.
At this point anyone is an upgrade over the awful RFern
chuckaluck1 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2025 10:53 am
MO’s refusal to cut bait with Mikolas is a major cause of this. Remove him for an 8th reliever but then again MO’s ability to sign good relievers is a crapshoot. Some signings are good others not so.
C'mon, Mikolas wasn't the problem last night. We have a couple incendiaries in the pen who should not be there. Fernandez was good last year but horrible this year. I understand that the Cards wanted to give him chances to see if he could revert to his outlier of last year, but, it isn't happening.
Some of our problems are that a couple young pitchers who might have stepped up this year, to bolster pen, Zack Thompson and perhaps Hjerpe are on IL. I suspect that Loutos, O'Brien and even Robberse will get shots at some point....but, they haven't overwhelmed the minors at this point.
We didn't have enough backup relievers this year. Some talent but a pen is only as strong as the weakest link. Teams like the Mets will win the close ones because their pen is stronger. We will lose most extra inning games (all so far) because our pen doesn't stand up.
We should be beating the bush for reliever options; just not sure why anyone would want to give them to us.
My comment was not a criticism of Mikolas last night but because he is still on the roster, which leads to a six man staff because Mo orders the team to pitch him every five or six days because Mo's signings are always right, which leads to one less reliever
