Lance Lynn retires

[Ozziesfan41]

Does he get a red jacket?

Ray Lankford should give him his.

A) Lynn couldn’t fit into 3 Ray Lankford red jackets.
B) Lankford was an underrated player. His peak from 1992-2000, all with the Cardinals, he hit .279/.375/.495 with an fWAR (36.7) similar to Bernie Williams (37.5), good for 21st in the game during that time.

I just dont understand how people could possibly question if Lankford should be in the cardinals hall of fame. He was a centerfielder and ranked 5th all time in franchise history in walks, 5th in stolen bases, 5th in homeruns, 7th in extra base hits, 9th in runs, 10th in RBI, 10th in doubles, thats 7 offensive categories hes in top 10 in franchise history. He was 11th in total bases, 16th in hits and 18th in triples. Thats 10 offensive categories hes top 20 in in franchise history. He was also 21st in OBP and 38th in batting average. I just dont see how you could possibly even entertain keeping a player like that out of cards hall of fame

[The Nard]

I always liked Lance Lynn as a #3 or #4 on our staff, and wanted him to spend his entire career in St. Louis. He was a capable pitcher, and an innings eater, when healthy.

I believe that much of the criticism of Lynn on this forum was due to the way he looked, and comported himself. I always supported pitchers with some attitude.

His stats would have been much better last season had Oli let him pitch longer in games where he was cruising. He usually cut him off after 5 inings, deserved or not.

Goof luck to LL - and in this era, it may be that he'll get that red jacket eventually; he did have a couple of AS appearances, CYA votes, 143 wins in the Majors with a winning record, and pretty good peripherals.

[imetsatchelpaige]

I love Lynn and defended him here for what felt like decades.
Rock of Gibraltar type pitcher.
143-99. Ate innings like he ate dinner-lots of both.
And a great interview-ask any reporter.

[Strummer Jones]

It is absurd to even think, let alone say out loud, that Lynn ranks favorably with the Original Carp. I’ve been a Cardinals fan since (let’s say) 1960. Carp was one of the biggest bada**es to ever wear the Birds on the Bat. Other than Gibby, I can’t think of another Cardinal pitcher I’d rather watch pitch. You knew he was special when you watched him. Lynn was a good pitcher, but he sure as hell couldn’t carry Carp’s luggage.

Carp had higher peaks, no doubt about it, but also much deeper valleys. But as a whole career, Carp had a real dog of a time in Toronto. Ineffective, under .500 record, and an ERA in the high 4's. The advanced stats don't paint a prettier picture.

On the flip side, he was never bad here. But he also basically missed three full seasons. '07, '08, and '12. Four whole seasons, if you count in '03 when we signed him fully knowing he was out for the year.

Again, gun to my head, pick one pitcher between Lynn and Carpenter to win ONE game, I'm taking Carpenter. But it's not as absurd as you make it out to be.

Carpenter: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... ch01.shtml

Lynn: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... la01.shtml

Imagine, if you will, Lance Lynn v. Roy Halladay. Playoffs at Philly. Halladay maybe baseball’s best pitcher that year. Must win game. You need a gun to your head to choose Carp. Oh, man. That’s not even funny. And you can’t be serious. That IS AS ABSURD as you make it to be.

Maybe not the best choice of words, but they were similar pitchers. Lynn didn't have the peaks that Carpenter had, but he also wasn't mediocre for the first five years of his career and miss four years with injuries.

[ecleme22]

It is absurd to even think, let alone say out loud, that Lynn ranks favorably with the Original Carp. I’ve been a Cardinals fan since (let’s say) 1960. Carp was one of the biggest bada**es to ever wear the Birds on the Bat. Other than Gibby, I can’t think of another Cardinal pitcher I’d rather watch pitch. You knew he was special when you watched him. Lynn was a good pitcher, but he sure as hell couldn’t carry Carp’s luggage.

Carp had higher peaks, no doubt about it, but also much deeper valleys. But as a whole career, Carp had a real dog of a time in Toronto. Ineffective, under .500 record, and an ERA in the high 4's. The advanced stats don't paint a prettier picture.

On the flip side, he was never bad here. But he also basically missed three full seasons. '07, '08, and '12. Four whole seasons, if you count in '03 when we signed him fully knowing he was out for the year.

Again, gun to my head, pick one pitcher between Lynn and Carpenter to win ONE game, I'm taking Carpenter. But it's not as absurd as you make it out to be.

Carpenter: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... ch01.shtml

Lynn: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... la01.shtml

Imagine, if you will, Lance Lynn v. Roy Halladay. Playoffs at Philly. Halladay maybe baseball’s best pitcher that year. Must win game. You need a gun to your head to choose Carp. Oh, man. That’s not even funny. And you can’t be serious. That IS AS ABSURD as you make it to be.

Maybe not the best choice of words, but they were similar pitchers. Lynn didn't have the peaks that Carpenter had, but he also wasn't mediocre for the first five years of his career and miss four years with injuries.

No, they weren’t similar pitchers.

No baseball expert would make that claim.

[Strummer Jones]

It is absurd to even think, let alone say out loud, that Lynn ranks favorably with the Original Carp. I’ve been a Cardinals fan since (let’s say) 1960. Carp was one of the biggest bada**es to ever wear the Birds on the Bat. Other than Gibby, I can’t think of another Cardinal pitcher I’d rather watch pitch. You knew he was special when you watched him. Lynn was a good pitcher, but he sure as hell couldn’t carry Carp’s luggage.

Carp had higher peaks, no doubt about it, but also much deeper valleys. But as a whole career, Carp had a real dog of a time in Toronto. Ineffective, under .500 record, and an ERA in the high 4's. The advanced stats don't paint a prettier picture.

On the flip side, he was never bad here. But he also basically missed three full seasons. '07, '08, and '12. Four whole seasons, if you count in '03 when we signed him fully knowing he was out for the year.

Again, gun to my head, pick one pitcher between Lynn and Carpenter to win ONE game, I'm taking Carpenter. But it's not as absurd as you make it out to be.

Carpenter: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... ch01.shtml

Lynn: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... la01.shtml

Imagine, if you will, Lance Lynn v. Roy Halladay. Playoffs at Philly. Halladay maybe baseball’s best pitcher that year. Must win game. You need a gun to your head to choose Carp. Oh, man. That’s not even funny. And you can’t be serious. That IS AS ABSURD as you make it to be.

Maybe not the best choice of words, but they were similar pitchers. Lynn didn't have the peaks that Carpenter had, but he also wasn't mediocre for the first five years of his career and miss four years with injuries.

No, they weren’t similar pitchers.

No baseball expert would make that claim.

Then why are their career stats similar?

Again, don't misunderstand me, I take Carpenter 10/10 times over Lynn. But they're not as different as you think. Big bulldog guys with big fastballs. The separator for Carpenter was his curveball. But once all the dust settled, they ended up in similar places.

[nighthawk]

Does he get a red jacket?

Ray Lankford should give him his.

A) Lynn couldn’t fit into 3 Ray Lankford red jackets.
B) Lankford was an underrated player. His peak from 1992-2000, all with the Cardinals, he hit .279/.375/.495 with an fWAR (36.7) similar to Bernie Williams (37.5), good for 21st in the game during that time.

I just dont understand how people could possibly question if Lankford should be in the cardinals hall of fame. He was a centerfielder and ranked 5th all time in franchise history in walks, 5th in stolen bases, 5th in homeruns, 7th in extra base hits, 9th in runs, 10th in RBI, 10th in doubles, thats 7 offensive categories hes in top 10 in franchise history. He was 11th in total bases, 16th in hits and 18th in triples. Thats 10 offensive categories hes top 20 in in franchise history. He was also 21st in OBP and 38th in batting average. I just dont see how you could possibly even entertain keeping a player like that out of cards hall of fame

Because they still embrace the charming Ray "K" Lankford and are under the delusion that strikeouts negate anything positive about a player's production. It's what you produce per out, not what you produce per type of out.

[ecleme22]

It is absurd to even think, let alone say out loud, that Lynn ranks favorably with the Original Carp. I’ve been a Cardinals fan since (let’s say) 1960. Carp was one of the biggest bada**es to ever wear the Birds on the Bat. Other than Gibby, I can’t think of another Cardinal pitcher I’d rather watch pitch. You knew he was special when you watched him. Lynn was a good pitcher, but he sure as hell couldn’t carry Carp’s luggage.

Carp had higher peaks, no doubt about it, but also much deeper valleys. But as a whole career, Carp had a real dog of a time in Toronto. Ineffective, under .500 record, and an ERA in the high 4's. The advanced stats don't paint a prettier picture.

On the flip side, he was never bad here. But he also basically missed three full seasons. '07, '08, and '12. Four whole seasons, if you count in '03 when we signed him fully knowing he was out for the year.

Again, gun to my head, pick one pitcher between Lynn and Carpenter to win ONE game, I'm taking Carpenter. But it's not as absurd as you make it out to be.

Carpenter: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... ch01.shtml

Lynn: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... la01.shtml

Imagine, if you will, Lance Lynn v. Roy Halladay. Playoffs at Philly. Halladay maybe baseball’s best pitcher that year. Must win game. You need a gun to your head to choose Carp. Oh, man. That’s not even funny. And you can’t be serious. That IS AS ABSURD as you make it to be.

Maybe not the best choice of words, but they were similar pitchers. Lynn didn't have the peaks that Carpenter had, but he also wasn't mediocre for the first five years of his career and miss four years with injuries.

No, they weren’t similar pitchers.

No baseball expert would make that claim.

Then why are their career stats similar?

Again, don't misunderstand me, I take Carpenter 10/10 times over Lynn. But they're not as different as you think. Big bulldog guys with big fastballs. The separator for Carpenter was his curveball. But once all the dust settled, they ended up in similar places.

Their stats are similar because of Carp’s failure to launch in Toronto.

So yes, Carp’s great run w stl minus injuries and minus growing pains in Toronto = still better WAR than Lynn in less starts.

[rockondlouie]

Does he get a red jacket?

7 yrs a Redbird
79-51
3.43 ERA
3.71 FiP
114 ERA+

Solid Cardinals career, no Red Jacket though

Morris had more wins, but otherwise pretty similar numbers. ERA+ is VERY slightly favored to Morris. He had a 117. Morris had a worse ERA by a hair (3.61)--similar FiP (Morris was 3.77)

Lynn also lines up favorably to a lot of the more ratio stats of Bob Forsch well, too.

I was always a big fan, liked his bad a z z demeanor on the bump.

But B. Forsch is well ahead of Lynn in Cardinals history, a 15 year Cardinal w/163 wins and a pair of no-no's.

Good comp though w/Matty Mo and I looked at that too.

But Morris and Forsch, in their Cardinals days, were looked upon as staff leaders and #1's (not ACES but the Cardinals #1) while Lance wasn't.

Forsch was a slam dunk Red Jacket, but honestly strummer I didn't think Morris deserved a Red Jacket either.

JMO

Here's my counter argument, though. Lynn wasn't the staff ace in St. Louis, but I don't think that's any fault of his own. His rookie year he pitched mostly out of the bullpen and had Carpenter. After that, he was probably second fiddle to Wainwright and those few seasons that Martinez was pitching as good as he was capable of.

Not to take from Forschie, but he was always probably the best pitcher on some ho-hum staffs. Forsch was also never an all-star. By measure of ERA+ he was pretty much a league average pitcher. He had some excellent seasons, no doubt. But Lynn was consistently a well above average starter in his time in STL. He averaged an ERA+ of 116. Forsch averaged a 101.

I'm also not a fan of bringing in no-hitters into the conversation either. Again, not to take away from Bob...but Jose Jiménez also had more no-no's than Lance. Bud Smith, too.

Fair enough

But Forsch's body of Cardinals work is what makes him a slam dunk Red Jacket member.

I saw both their careers, was a fan of both.

You mentioned Carlos Martinez, does he also get a Red Jacket if Lynn get's one?

CMart as a Cardinal:
9 yrs (7 yrs Lynn)
139 GS (184 GS Lynn)
62 Wins (79 Wins Lynn)
31 Saves (1 save Lynn)
3.66 FiP (3.82 FiP)
1.30 WHiP (1.29 WHiP)
107 ERA+ (114 ERA+ Lynn)
2 Time All Star (1 time All Star)

I'd say no

And I still don't think Lynn gets a Red Jacket either.

Good point. I agree I dont think he should get in but if he does i wouldnt complain about it

Thx Oz

And I wouldn't be the least bit upset either since I was a big fan of Lance.

But on merit alone, he's not RJ worthy.

[rockondlouie]

I was always a fan of Lance, nice career and $110,440,917 career earnings means no Lynn offspring will have to work for many decades.

Hated when they didn’t try to bring him back when he left. Hated that they did later in his career. He should have been one of our top options instead of places like Minnesota.

I hated that they even let him leave in the first place!

And how about our BLUES?

[Stlcardsblues]

I was always a fan of Lance, nice career and $110,440,917 career earnings means no Lynn offspring will have to work for many decades.

Hated when they didn’t try to bring him back when he left. Hated that they did later in his career. He should have been one of our top options instead of places like Minnesota.

I hated that they even let him leave in the first place!

And how about our BLUES?

It’s been a great run, just hope they stay hot and make a deep run.

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

Should the title be he’s forced to retire because no one wanted him?

[1_12_1968]

Does he get a red jacket?

Ray Lankford should give him his.

You should learn baseball.

Don't blame my opinion about mr 1 time all star.

[ecleme22]

Does he get a red jacket?

Ray Lankford should give him his.

You should learn baseball.

Don't blame my opinion about mr 1 time all star.

Learn baseball.

[1_12_1968]

Does he get a red jacket?

Ray Lankford should give him his.

A) Lynn couldn’t fit into 3 Ray Lankford red jackets.
B) Lankford was an underrated player. His peak from 1992-2000, all with the Cardinals, he hit .279/.375/.495 with an fWAR (36.7) similar to Bernie Williams (37.5), good for 21st in the game during that time.

Great, he belongs in the Hall of pretty good. 21st during your best service time period is a red jacket? Lets have little trophies made up for everyone.

[1_12_1968]

Does he get a red jacket?

Ray Lankford should give him his.

You should learn baseball.

Don't blame my opinion about mr 1 time all star.

Learn baseball.

I know plenty about baseball. I just don't reward a red jacket to the 21st best player in his peak period. It dilutes the honor. Red Jackets should be near HOFers with Multiple All Star teams, MVPs or Cy Youngs.