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2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

Predicting the future, when it comes to baseball prospects or anything else, is an inexact science.

Who would have guessed?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

As J. Denton said in his column:

"... the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode -- an often-trying process that guarantees a team nothing in terms of length or heartache throughout the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode"

Unfortunately due to BDWJr's mismanagement and Mo's ineptness the re-build has become a necessity that never needed to happen w/proper leadership.

Let's hope C. Bloom is the exception and gets it right but he'll need strong payroll support from Dewitt to get the Cardinals back to being a serious contender.

No team can contend w/o signing quality free agents and acquiring them via trade.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:07 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

As J. Denton said in his column:

"... the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode -- an often-trying process that guarantees a team nothing in terms of length or heartache throughout the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode"

Unfortunately due to BDWJr's mismanagement and Mo's ineptness the re-build has become a necessity that never needed to happen w/proper leadership.

Let's hope C. Bloom is the exception and gets it right but he'll need strong payroll support from Dewitt to get the Cardinals back to being a serious contender.

No team can contend w/o signing quality free agents and acquiring them via trade.

And, if one is just going to assume this FO is going to be "inept" at this rebuild by being unable to obtain enough of the right prospects as part of this process, you should assume they would be just as "inept" in evaluating talent by trying to obtain it other ways and also fail.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:01 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

Predicting the future, when it comes to baseball prospects or anything else, is an inexact science.

Who would have guessed?

There are some savants around here that fancy themselves as 100% correct at predicting the future of baseball prospects.

I wonder if there are also examples of free agent signings or trades that didn't go as hoped. Or are prospects the only thing that carry risk.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:10 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:07 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

As J. Denton said in his column:

"... the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode -- an often-trying process that guarantees a team nothing in terms of length or heartache throughout the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode"

Unfortunately due to BDWJr's mismanagement and Mo's ineptness the re-build has become a necessity that never needed to happen w/proper leadership.

Let's hope C. Bloom is the exception and gets it right but he'll need strong payroll support from Dewitt to get the Cardinals back to being a serious contender.

No team can contend w/o signing quality free agents and acquiring them via trade.

And, if one is just going to assume this FO is going to be "inept" at this rebuild by being unable to obtain enough of the right prospects as part of this process, you should assume they would be just as "inept" in evaluating talent by trying to obtain it other ways and also fail.

Huh?

I said MO was the inept one.

Bloom evaluations/trades he made in Boston look pretty d a m n good, actually great:

-Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

-TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

-Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:22 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:10 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:07 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

As J. Denton said in his column:

"... the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode -- an often-trying process that guarantees a team nothing in terms of length or heartache throughout the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode"

Unfortunately due to BDWJr's mismanagement and Mo's ineptness the re-build has become a necessity that never needed to happen w/proper leadership.

Let's hope C. Bloom is the exception and gets it right but he'll need strong payroll support from Dewitt to get the Cardinals back to being a serious contender.

No team can contend w/o signing quality free agents and acquiring them via trade.

And, if one is just going to assume this FO is going to be "inept" at this rebuild by being unable to obtain enough of the right prospects as part of this process, you should assume they would be just as "inept" in evaluating talent by trying to obtain it other ways and also fail.

Huh?

I said MO was the inept one.

Bloom evaluations/trades he made in Boston look pretty d a m n good, actually great:

-Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

-TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

-Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

I was elaborating, not disagreeing.

My point was that if Scotch insisted on being cynical about the path they were on, he might as well be cynical about any path.

C-Unit wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:15 am I wonder if there are also examples of free agent signings or trades that didn't go as hoped. Or are prospects the only thing that carry risk.

lol very true!

Bomber1 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:32 am

C-Unit wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:15 am I wonder if there are also examples of free agent signings or trades that didn't go as hoped. Or are prospects the only thing that carry risk.

lol very true!

And screwing up major FA signings will hurt you a lot more overall than screwing up prospects.

Case study - the LA Angels.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

You’re obsessed.

Scotch wants to look at the Betts deal at face value. But the primary motivation was to dump money. And that was motivation from Henry. The trade return was secondary…

I get it. Give up on scouting, youth and the future

ecleme22 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:59 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

You’re obsessed.

Scotch wants to look at the Betts deal at face value. But the primary motivation was to dump money. And that was motivation from Henry. The trade return was secondary…

People do like to ignore the facts that doesn’t fit their narrative and people do it all of the time with the betts deal. If he was able to deal just betts he would he would have received a much better haul but because he had lump price into it it lowered the value but yet people are like but but but betts!

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:22 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:10 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:07 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

As J. Denton said in his column:

"... the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode -- an often-trying process that guarantees a team nothing in terms of length or heartache throughout the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode"

Unfortunately due to BDWJr's mismanagement and Mo's ineptness the re-build has become a necessity that never needed to happen w/proper leadership.

Let's hope C. Bloom is the exception and gets it right but he'll need strong payroll support from Dewitt to get the Cardinals back to being a serious contender.

No team can contend w/o signing quality free agents and acquiring them via trade.

And, if one is just going to assume this FO is going to be "inept" at this rebuild by being unable to obtain enough of the right prospects as part of this process, you should assume they would be just as "inept" in evaluating talent by trying to obtain it other ways and also fail.

Huh?

I said MO was the inept one.

Bloom evaluations/trades he made in Boston look pretty d a m n good, actually great:

-Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

-TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

-Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

Mozeliak and his minor league staff - many of whom are now coaching in St Louis - were inept at evaluating their own talent. DeWitt Jr was pressuring Mozeliak to trade prospects for veterans to stay in the playoffs. Mozeliak's failure was improperly evaluating and developing his own prospects.

I'm not trashing Bloom. Just stating reality. If his trades were great why was he fired?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 11:26 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:22 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:10 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:07 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 08:59 am 2017 Reds draft pick #32 overall. #7 in the Reds system when he was traded to the Dodgers. #2 in the Dodgers system and #44 prospect in MLB when he was traded to the Red Sox as part of the Betts/Price deal.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... wns-000jet

Total of 6 MLB hits and spent the last 2 seasons in Japan.

The other player of note the Red Sox got was Verdugo who had some good years. At one point #1 in the Dodgers system. Never an all star but a good player who has tapered off over the last 2 seasons.

These rebuilds are not automatic. Not all highly rated prospects pan out as Bloom found out with Jeter Downs.

As J. Denton said in his column:

"... the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode -- an often-trying process that guarantees a team nothing in terms of length or heartache throughout the Cardinals now find themselves squarely in rebuild mode"

Unfortunately due to BDWJr's mismanagement and Mo's ineptness the re-build has become a necessity that never needed to happen w/proper leadership.

Let's hope C. Bloom is the exception and gets it right but he'll need strong payroll support from Dewitt to get the Cardinals back to being a serious contender.

No team can contend w/o signing quality free agents and acquiring them via trade.

And, if one is just going to assume this FO is going to be "inept" at this rebuild by being unable to obtain enough of the right prospects as part of this process, you should assume they would be just as "inept" in evaluating talent by trying to obtain it other ways and also fail.

Huh?

I said MO was the inept one.

Bloom evaluations/trades he made in Boston look pretty d a m n good, actually great:

-Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

-TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

-Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

Mozeliak and his minor league staff - many of whom are now coaching in St Louis - were inept at evaluating their own talent. DeWitt Jr was pressuring Mozeliak to trade prospects for veterans to stay in the playoffs. Mozeliak's failure was improperly evaluating and developing his own prospects.

I'm not trashing Bloom. Just stating reality. If his trades were great why was he fired?

I think Boston ownership is pretty impulsive and bipolar. Bloom did not get a fair shake and it doesn't require too much reading between the lines to see that.

How many times has SD thrown gobs of money in a splash and won a World Series? And other teams have tried it. How many have done a rebuild and won it? I don't know. NO guarantees in this game. Projecting kids is impossible. Even veterans year to year change. Remember Walker was ranked in the top 5 by everyone. That wasn't STL ranking him that was the industry.

I do know this. Baseball's economics have changed dramatically in the last 25 years. Small market teams can no longer contend for the highest priced free agents. The only way they will obtain elite talent is from their farm systems. Hence this isn't just a rebuild of talent. It is a systemic tear down of a defective farm system and rebuild from the ground up.

Will it work right away? No one knows. Was there an alternative to this decision? Only if ownership wanted to run at a financial loss and buy gobs more talent. Like up the salary to $250 mil and buy half a roster.

I'm not happy we have to do the rebuild. But as a pragmatic person I accept this is the only rational path.