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For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 19:49 pm For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

They Could've:

Trade Nado.
Trade Donovan and a C prospect for a young, cost-controlled #2/3 pitcher.
Sign Framber Valdez.
Sign Eugenio Suarez.
Sign Phil Maton.
Sign Ryan Helsley or Kyle Finnegan.
Trade for a RFer.

Lineup:

Wetherholt 2B
Herrera C
Burleson LF
Suarez 3B
Contreras 1B
Gorman DH
New RF
Winn SS
Scott II CF

Bench: Saggese, Church, Torres, Crooks

Rotation:
Valdez, Gray, Newly Acquired P, Liberatore, McGreevy

Pen:
Helsely/Finnegan, Maton, Romero, Graceffo, O'Brien, Svanson, Leahy, Need another Lefty

Obviously this would never happen. But it would've been doable. Hardly impossible. Anyways, this team would've competed in the playoffs.

Im good with a methodic rebuild over the next two seasons. I think a lot of action takes place this winter. Bolster the farm and add a couple MLB pieces for now. Go bigger in a couple years.

Below is a list of teams not in one of the 10 largest US metropolitan areas who became unwatchable by trading away all their best players over 26, decreased their ticket and TV revenues, and then became "serious" World Series contenders 5 years later.

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 19:49 pm For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

1. Replace Oli.
2. doesn't matter until 1 is completed.

I have no problem moving the high cost players, ( Arenado, Gray, and Contreras) Gray already brought back two prospects that have good upsides. Contreras should do the same if not better. Arenado probably won’t bring back much, but the salary relief should be reinvested now, not years down the road. Nootbaar and Gorman can both go, as well. Get what you can for them, either now or at the trade deadline. Then go out and sign or receive in one of the trades a good innings eating starter that will at least keep you in most games. They need another lefty reliever, and probably one righty as well. They can probably get one or both of those in those trades.
Then go and get a right handed power bat. He can play 1st, 3rd, LF, RF, CF, or just DH, the Cardinals have the players to fill in where he doesn’t play. Your lineup is then;

Wetherholt 2B/3B
Donovan 2B/3B/LF
Herrera C/LF/DH
Burleson 1B/LF/RF/DH
RH Bat 1B/3B/OF/DH
Winn SS
Crooks/Pages C
Walker RF
Scott CF

Saggese
Fermin
Pozo
Prieto
Church
Baez - coming soon

It is also possible for them to acquire additional hitters with the trades made, so that maybe Walker could start at AAA. The cost in money would be offset by what was removed.
Maybe they don’t win the division but they could see where the flaws are and to fill them. Several young pitchers are on the verge of arriving. The Cardinals could do this, but I fear they won’t, simply because DeWitt won’t spend any money until after 2027, when he hopes the rules have changed.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 23:04 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 19:49 pm For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

1. Replace Oli.
2. doesn't matter until 1 is completed.

Revren!

BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 00:21 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 23:04 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 19:49 pm For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

1. Replace Oli.
2. doesn't matter until 1 is completed.

Revren!

Now who can argue with that? I think we're all indebted to Brummer Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said. I'm particulary glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 19:49 pm For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

Not against the rebuild but I want a competitive team by 2027 (if no strike) or 2028. Some of these trades need to get some mlb ready players. I have to believe the value is there. I struggle with Donovan trade but not against it.

My point to be competitive in 2028 you need core players playing this year or next.

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 19:49 pm For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

None given BDWJr has made it clear he's been clearing payroll for two years in anticipation of tough CBA negotiations after the 2026 season.

The correct move is (was) to trade S. Gray, Donny, JoJo and even WillyC if he'll waive.

People don't want a rebuild? Fascinating.

WeeVikes wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 07:06 am

BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 00:21 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 23:04 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 19:49 pm For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

1. Replace Oli.
2. doesn't matter until 1 is completed.

Revren!

Now who can argue with that? I think we're all indebted to Brummer Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said. I'm particulary glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.

The manager is near!

Possibly I was naive in thinking they could rebuild while also trying to stay in the hunt.
I'm fine with them trading Gray away, but it does almost eliminate any chances of them competing in 2026 at a level high enough to go very far.
Maybe having a more defined focus on rebuilding is the best path forward w/o worrying much about the W's and L's in the near term.
With hindsight, too bad this focus wasn't put in place a couple years ago when key players had more value and they could already be farther along in this process, but it is what it is, and it will be interesting to follow.
Maybe they can surprise us to the upside in the timeline it takes. They already have some good pieces to work with.

JDW wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 10:42 am They already have some good pieces to work with.

Do we though? I keep going back and forth on this.

On one hand, had we kept most of 2025 roster that was over .500 in July when we decided to sell and then did the following:
1. refill the closer role
2. bring back Maton or similar
3. Use McGreevey for a full year instead of Fedde
4. Keep Gray and others.
5. backfill Mikolas with his available salary
--so far we haven't really "added" any costs.
6. add one additional starter via trade or FA to replace/upgrade on Pallante and push him to #6/#7 or bullpen. Mabye Fitz could have been acquired for a Hence or Crooks level prospect or even less to fill this role.
7. Replace Oli when an experienced chemistry building manager who can also develop younger prospects who don't listen to a young guy like Oli (think Tony's dad look).
this right here makes us a winning team if we run it back with the same results otherwise.

8. Then maybe we trade Donovan for someone like Andy Pages, put JJW at 2b. Now we have a ROY candidate at 2b and a potential AS in CF or RF who hit 27 HRs last year. That's a huge upgrade.
9. Mid year or late year we possibly have Matthews or Doyle arriving to boost the pitching staff.
10. the new coaches brought in from #7 actually click with some of Walker, Noot, Gorman, Scott, Sagesse, Winn from the bat side and 2-3 of them surprise to the upside and reach expectations both offensively and defensively. That's another 4-7 WAR. Maybe 8-10 if Walker is one and quits posting negatives.
--now that just over .500 team from most of 2025 is looking at 90+ wins and contending for a division. And we haven't even broken the bank on a Tatis trade or a Tucker/Belliger signing.
--Other improvements are available at attainable cost:
Realmuto on a 1-2 year deal
Kelly to the rotation as FA
Bader as another OF improvement over what we've got
We don't have do even do any of these but that would just add to the expected win total we would already have. And of course it depends on having a manager who can get the best out of everyone available. But yes, I think there was a path to compete soon and there was high level prospect help to push us over the "top" into contention in 26 and even moreso in 27.

Meanwhile, selling anything that costs money does indeed make us unable to get to competition in the near term under any realistic scenarios, so it becomes a question of how much we are going to get out of those born after 2002? And I fear its not nearly enough to hit this "critical mass" for BDW to be willing to spend on the fill in talent that would be needed to compete again without fans already in the stands to support the investment needed. Especially with Oli and the status quo. Now JJW will have all the pressure on to proxy as a MoTo bat, Doyle when he arrives will be expected to face #2 opposing SPs. Games will be frittered away due to not having an experienced closer, hurting morale and chemistry. And the big question - how much can all these prospects actually develop After they hit the MLB level. So far very few are surprising to the upside and having career years like Tony got out of random guys like Craig and Ludwick.

I keep wondering even if Bloom executes his strategy brillaintly, will circumstances dictate that its doomed to never be quite enough, especially with Oli not giving our talent any kind of boost at the MLB level?

JDW wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 10:42 am Possibly I was naive in thinking they could rebuild while also trying to stay in the hunt.
I'm fine with them trading Gray away, but it does almost eliminate any chances of them competing in 2026 at a level high enough to go very far.
Maybe having a more defined focus on rebuilding is the best path forward w/o worrying much about the W's and L's in the near term.
With hindsight, too bad this focus wasn't put in place a couple years ago when key players had more value and they could already be farther along in this process, but it is what it is, and it will be interesting to follow.
Maybe they can surprise us to the upside in the timeline it takes. They already have some good pieces to work with.

Hypothetical:
Cards lose: Fedde, Miko, Gray (and Palante removed from rotation).
Cards get: Full season of McGreevy, and Quintana and Mahle on one year deals.

What rotation is better?

You can argue the 2026 one. I really liked Gray, but when did he become some Carp-esque anchor in our rotation?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 13:30 pm

JDW wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 10:42 am Possibly I was naive in thinking they could rebuild while also trying to stay in the hunt.
I'm fine with them trading Gray away, but it does almost eliminate any chances of them competing in 2026 at a level high enough to go very far.
Maybe having a more defined focus on rebuilding is the best path forward w/o worrying much about the W's and L's in the near term.
With hindsight, too bad this focus wasn't put in place a couple years ago when key players had more value and they could already be farther along in this process, but it is what it is, and it will be interesting to follow.
Maybe they can surprise us to the upside in the timeline it takes. They already have some good pieces to work with.

Hypothetical:
Cards lose: Fedde, Miko, Gray (and Palante removed from rotation).
Cards get: Full season of McGreevy, and Quintana and Mahle on one year deals.

What rotation is better?

You can argue the 2026 one. I really liked Gray, but when did he become some Carp-esque anchor in our rotation?

Cards were 38-22 when Gray started. No that's not Carp levels, but for as bad as our offense has been, he certainly did his job here.