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Posted: **22 Nov 2025 10:52 am**

For those who think we who preach that the Cardinals can rebuild their player development to be the engine that drives consistent success are wrong, Cleveland (4th), Milwaukee (5th), and Tampa Bay (8th) are among the Top 10 organizations in regular season wins in the last decade - along with the Dodgers, Astros, Yankees, Red Sox, Braves, Cubs, and Cardinals.

Let's see where each of Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay got their top 10 position players and top 10 pitchers, by fWAR across 2016-2025, from.

Cleveland

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

J. Ramirez - came to the majors with Cleveland
F. Lindor - came to the majors with Cleveland
S. Kwan - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Gimenez - obtained from the Mets after his first season in the majors
C. Santana - came to the majors with Cleveland
R. Perez - came to the majors with Cleveland
J. Naylor - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors
J. Kipnis - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Rosario - came to Cleveland after his first four years with the Mets
M. Brantley - came to the majors with Cleveland

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

S. Bieber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Kluber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Carrasco - came to the majors with Cleveland
T. Bauer - obtained from Arizona after his first season in the majors
M. Clevinger - came to the majors with Cleveland
E. Clase - obtained from Texas after his first season in the majors
T. Bibee - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Civale - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Smith - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Quantrill - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors

So 14 of the 20 came up from the Cleveland minor league system, and 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams

Milwaukee

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

C. Yelich - obtained from Miami after his fifth season in the majors
W. Adames - obtained from Tampa Bay during his fourth season in the majors
W. Contreras - obtained from Atlanta after his third season in the majors
L. Cain - came to the majors briefly with Milwaukee, went to KC, then came back later
R. Braun - came to the majors with Milwaukee
M. Pina - obtained from KC after his second ML season
T. Shaw - obtained from Boston after his second ML season
J. Chourio - came to the majors with Milwaukee
B. Turang - came to the majors with Milwaukee
S. Frelick - came to the majors with Milwaukee

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Woodruff - came to the majors with Milwaukee
F. Peralta - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Burnes - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Hader - came to the majors with Milwaukee
D. Williams - came to the majors with Milwaukee
Z. Davies - came to the majors with Milwaukee
A. Houser - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Nelson - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Anderson - obtained from Arizona after his second season in the majors
B. Suter - came to the majors with Milwaukee

So 13 of the 20 came up from the Milwaukee minor league system, 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and one (L. Cain) came back much later.

Tampa Bay

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

Y. Diaz - obtained from Cleveland after his second season in the majors
B. Lowe - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
K. Kiermaier - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
R. Arozarena - obtained from the Cardinals after his first season in the majors
I. Paredes - obtained from Detroit after his second season in the majors
W. Franco - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Wendle - obtained from Oakland after his second season in the majors
E. Longoria - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Pham - obtained from the Cardinals during his fifth season in the majors
A. Meadows - obtained from Pittsburgh during his rookie season

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Snell - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Glasnow - obtained from Pittsburgh during his third season in the majors
C. Archer - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
D. Rasmussen - obtained from Milwaukee during his second season in the majors
S. McClanahan - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
C. Morton - obtained late at age 35 after years in the majors
Z. Eflin - obtained late at age 29 after years in the majors
P. Fairbanks - obtained from Texas during his rookie season
R. Yarbrough - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Springs - obtained after three major league seasons with Texas and Boston

So 8 of the 20 came up from the Tampa Bay minor league system, 10 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and two (C. Morton and Z. Eflin) came much later.

These teams show that you can have sustained success by the vast majority of your production coming from either players you develop yourself or players you obtain as cost controlled players early in their ML careers.

And, although none of them have won a WS, if the Cardinals can achieve what these teams have done with pre-ARB and ARB players and add to that a much more robust $170, $180 million payroll, they should be able to reach considerably higher than even Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:06 am**

Milwaukee tends to hit on 2 or 3 lottery tickets every 2 to 3 seasons in the International Market....another two with Made and Pena are on the way in the next 2 seasons...probably 2027/2028.

Was impressed watching those two vs. Peoria late last season. Their bats play tremendously well for their age.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:11 am**

I would say Cardinal Brass would occasionally pony up with free agents to get back to the 3,000,000 fan base.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:23 am**

It is all about making better decisions on a daily basis.
Big market teams win unless they are stupid. Small market teams lose unless they are smart.

We seriously need to draft/sign/trade for prospects like Woodruff, Peralta, Burnes, Hader, Williams, Davies, Houser, Nelson
That's Milwaukee's secret sauce lately.

The old Cardinal's secret sauce was to let Duncan revive guys which other teams had given up on.

Milwaukee has been outsmarting St Louis on a daily basis for 10 years.

We need to get smart.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:26 am**

cardstatman wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 11:23 am It is all about making better decisions on a daily basis.
Big market teams win unless they are stupid. Small market teams lose unless they are smart.

We seriously need to draft/sign/trade for prospects like Woodruff, Peralta, Burnes, Hader, Williams, Davies, Houser, Nelson
That's Milwaukee's secret sauce lately.

The old Cardinal's secret sauce was to let Duncan revive guys which other teams had given up on.

Milwaukee has been outsmarting St Louis on a daily basis for 10 years.

We need to get smart.

I wouldn't call the Brewers draft philosophy "smart"....it's bit chaotic. And they never sign more than 12 or 13 (usually) from the 20 round try. True, they have hit on a few, but they've traded well over the last 10 years, too...or have been very opportunistic.

It all comes together sometimes. I think their success is a blend of Int'l, 1 HS prospect of the millions they draft each year panning out, good/opportunistic trades, and good culture in the clubhouse/front office.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:30 am**

The Cardinals absolutely have to get much better at:

1) evaluating amateur draft talent
2) evaluating international signing talent
3) evaluating talent within their own minor league system, and
4) evaluating talent in other teams' minor league systems that they can poach

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:35 am**

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 11:30 am The Cardinals absolutely have to get much better at:

1) evaluating amateur draft talent
2) evaluating international signing talent
3) evaluating talent within their own minor league system, and
4) evaluating talent in other teams' minor league systems that they can poach

So you’re saying they need to get better in evaluating talent period.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:37 am**

Good post and I've come to like the "critical mass" term you've coined. It implies momentum...

It implies that this is not a "cycle," that will take us back and forth every few years from tanking to competing and then tanking again. Rather, a commitment to overall organizational improvement that leads our player development system to provide ongoing support. This will be the foundation of the floor of talent on our ML roster as well as the currency for trades in some cases, and because it's a "critical mass," that implies that this system will maintain and sustain itself even once the organization is successful again.

momentum

It does depend on an overall system being built by Bloom and Cerfolio. A system that clearly goes beyond simply "tanking to get high draft picks" as the (donkey)-on-shoulders crowd have simplified it.

And... to be specific I have not heard even Bloom use the term "rebuilding." That term (as far as I'm concerned) has only been used by the fans, interpreting and negatively connotating what they believe the organization is doing.

That's why I like using the term "organizational improvement" because I think that replicates what we've seen some other teams do. It's a process-oriented term. It removes certain goal markers like "opening day" and "trade deadline" from the equation. It's a process of continuous improvement. Clearly, slapping on some band-aid free agents just to "win a few games" does not reflect "improvement," it only satisfies the lust of the simple-minded crowd who seem to boil their view of the organization down to the responsibility they impose on Bill to spend enough to "impress them," until the next goal marker comes up....

I can't imagine what fan wouldn't want "improvement."

Moreover, we have seen teams in recent years condense this process. I think we are used to using examples like the Astros and Cubs from 10 years ago as examples of a "rebuild." I think those are tired examples. Nowadays, I think smart offices remove the goal markers, and just focus on steady organizational improvement and often times find themselves making noise again much shorter than 3-5 years.

I'll use the Marlins as my example. In just one year, Peter Bendix went from "an example of what's wrong with baseball" to a "genius." My primary perception and interpretation of his strategy, is that he is not using terms like "rebuild," or goal markers like "trade deadline" to describe what he's doing. Seems to me he just wakes up every day regardless of what day it is and thinks about how he can improve his organization.

That's my hope for what Bloom is doing and surely in the process we should reach the "critical mass" of player development you've spoke of Matt.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 11:48 am**

craviduce wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 11:26 am
cardstatman wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 11:23 am It is all about making better decisions on a daily basis.
Big market teams win unless they are stupid. Small market teams lose unless they are smart.

We seriously need to draft/sign/trade for prospects like Woodruff, Peralta, Burnes, Hader, Williams, Davies, Houser, Nelson
That's Milwaukee's secret sauce lately.

The old Cardinal's secret sauce was to let Duncan revive guys which other teams had given up on.

Milwaukee has been outsmarting St Louis on a daily basis for 10 years.

We need to get smart.
I wouldn't call the Brewers draft philosophy "smart"....it's bit chaotic. And they never sign more than 12 or 13 (usually) from the 20 round try. True, they have hit on a few, but they've traded well over the last 10 years, too...or have been very opportunistic.

It all comes together sometimes. I think their success is a blend of Int'l, 1 HS prospect of the millions they draft each year panning out, good/opportunistic trades, and good culture in the clubhouse/front office.

They sure hit on a lot of good pitchers. They came up with the Brewers but they didn't draft them all. They have made some smart trades. They may be better at trading than drafting. Usually, there is a lot more information available when trading than drafting.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 12:06 pm**

C-Unit wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 11:37 am That's my hope for what Bloom is doing and surely in the process we should reach the "critical mass" of player development you've spoke of Matt.

I would say that the most important thing fans need to internalize right now is that BY FAR the most important thing that will happen this offseason is the prospect return that Bloom gets for Donovan, Gray, Arenado, and maybe Contreras.

Bloom needs to acquire more prospects - and in particular ones what are ML-ready or near ML-ready - to "prime the system" in order to quickly get the Cardinals player development system to where it is delivering and sustaining that "critical mass" of young talent they absolutely must have on the ML roster.

The long term health of the system can be sustained by doing better at drafting and international signings - feeding the right "stock" into the system at the lowest levels for it to work on to develop ML players for 4, 5, 6 years from now.

But it is essential right now that they get at least one near term high ceiling prospect to go with Wetherholt and Doyle who could turn into All-Stars in the next 3 years, and as many near term high floor/low ceiling prospects (who could turn into just solid, average ML players) as they can.

Everything else has to take a distant back seat to "priming the system" this offseason.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 12:22 pm**

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 10:52 am For those who think we who preach that the Cardinals can rebuild their player development to be the engine that drives consistent success are wrong, Cleveland (4th), Milwaukee (5th), and Tampa Bay (8th) are among the Top 10 organizations in regular season wins in the last decade - along with the Dodgers, Astros, Yankees, Red Sox, Braves, Cubs, and Cardinals.

Let's see where each of Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay got their top 10 position players and top 10 pitchers, by fWAR across 2016-2025, from.

Cleveland

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

J. Ramirez - came to the majors with Cleveland
F. Lindor - came to the majors with Cleveland
S. Kwan - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Gimenez - obtained from the Mets after his first season in the majors
C. Santana - came to the majors with Cleveland
R. Perez - came to the majors with Cleveland
J. Naylor - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors
J. Kipnis - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Rosario - came to Cleveland after his first four years with the Mets
M. Brantley - came to the majors with Cleveland

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

S. Bieber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Kluber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Carrasco - came to the majors with Cleveland
T. Bauer - obtained from Arizona after his first season in the majors
M. Clevinger - came to the majors with Cleveland
E. Clase - obtained from Texas after his first season in the majors
T. Bibee - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Civale - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Smith - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Quantrill - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors

So 14 of the 20 came up from the Cleveland minor league system, and 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams

Milwaukee

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

C. Yelich - obtained from Miami after his fifth season in the majors
W. Adames - obtained from Tampa Bay during his fourth season in the majors
W. Contreras - obtained from Atlanta after his third season in the majors
L. Cain - came to the majors briefly with Milwaukee, went to KC, then came back later
R. Braun - came to the majors with Milwaukee
M. Pina - obtained from KC after his second ML season
T. Shaw - obtained from Boston after his second ML season
J. Chourio - came to the majors with Milwaukee
B. Turang - came to the majors with Milwaukee
S. Frelick - came to the majors with Milwaukee

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Woodruff - came to the majors with Milwaukee
F. Peralta - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Burnes - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Hader - came to the majors with Milwaukee
D. Williams - came to the majors with Milwaukee
Z. Davies - came to the majors with Milwaukee
A. Houser - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Nelson - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Anderson - obtained from Arizona after his second season in the majors
B. Suter - came to the majors with Milwaukee

So 13 of the 20 came up from the Milwaukee minor league system, 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and one (L. Cain) came back much later.

Tampa Bay

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

Y. Diaz - obtained from Cleveland after his second season in the majors
B. Lowe - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
K. Kiermaier - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
R. Arozarena - obtained from the Cardinals after his first season in the majors
I. Paredes - obtained from Detroit after his second season in the majors
W. Franco - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Wendle - obtained from Oakland after his second season in the majors
E. Longoria - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Pham - obtained from the Cardinals during his fifth season in the majors
A. Meadows - obtained from Pittsburgh during his rookie season

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Snell - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Glasnow - obtained from Pittsburgh during his third season in the majors
C. Archer - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
D. Rasmussen - obtained from Milwaukee during his second season in the majors
S. McClanahan - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
C. Morton - obtained late at age 35 after years in the majors
Z. Eflin - obtained late at age 29 after years in the majors
P. Fairbanks - obtained from Texas during his rookie season
R. Yarbrough - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Springs - obtained after three major league seasons with Texas and Boston

So 8 of the 20 came up from the Tampa Bay minor league system, 10 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and two (C. Morton and Z. Eflin) came much later.

These teams show that you can have sustained success by the vast majority of your production coming from either players you develop yourself or players you obtain as cost controlled players early in their ML careers.

And, although none of them have won a WS, if the Cardinals can achieve what these teams have done with pre-ARB and ARB players and add to that a much more robust $170, $180 million payroll, they should be able to reach considerably higher than even Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay.

CT is about winning championships...show me those World Series rings

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 12:35 pm**

And what do Cleveland (4th), Milwaukee (5th), and Tampa Bay (8th) all three have in common?

NO WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIPS since 1948 (Cleveland).

NONE ever for the Brewers & the Rays!

I thought the whole claim of the "tear it down" to the studs crowd was to build a WORLD SERIES WINNER.

Of course I've never said rebuilding their player development system was wrong, in fact I've been on board w/C. Bloom re-building the system since I started promoting his hiring before he was even hired or from Day 1.

But I also think it's idiotic to think the 2026/2027 Cardinals have to lose 100 games for this plan to be successful.

I also think adding major league or major league ready players via trades this offseason and thru smart, low cost free agent signings to field a competitive team will in no way, shape or form affect that player development plan.

Not sure why some can't understand this.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 12:36 pm**

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 12:22 pm
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 10:52 am For those who think we who preach that the Cardinals can rebuild their player development to be the engine that drives consistent success are wrong, Cleveland (4th), Milwaukee (5th), and Tampa Bay (8th) are among the Top 10 organizations in regular season wins in the last decade - along with the Dodgers, Astros, Yankees, Red Sox, Braves, Cubs, and Cardinals.

Let's see where each of Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay got their top 10 position players and top 10 pitchers, by fWAR across 2016-2025, from.

Cleveland

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

J. Ramirez - came to the majors with Cleveland
F. Lindor - came to the majors with Cleveland
S. Kwan - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Gimenez - obtained from the Mets after his first season in the majors
C. Santana - came to the majors with Cleveland
R. Perez - came to the majors with Cleveland
J. Naylor - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors
J. Kipnis - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Rosario - came to Cleveland after his first four years with the Mets
M. Brantley - came to the majors with Cleveland

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

S. Bieber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Kluber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Carrasco - came to the majors with Cleveland
T. Bauer - obtained from Arizona after his first season in the majors
M. Clevinger - came to the majors with Cleveland
E. Clase - obtained from Texas after his first season in the majors
T. Bibee - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Civale - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Smith - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Quantrill - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors

So 14 of the 20 came up from the Cleveland minor league system, and 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams

Milwaukee

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

C. Yelich - obtained from Miami after his fifth season in the majors
W. Adames - obtained from Tampa Bay during his fourth season in the majors
W. Contreras - obtained from Atlanta after his third season in the majors
L. Cain - came to the majors briefly with Milwaukee, went to KC, then came back later
R. Braun - came to the majors with Milwaukee
M. Pina - obtained from KC after his second ML season
T. Shaw - obtained from Boston after his second ML season
J. Chourio - came to the majors with Milwaukee
B. Turang - came to the majors with Milwaukee
S. Frelick - came to the majors with Milwaukee

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Woodruff - came to the majors with Milwaukee
F. Peralta - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Burnes - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Hader - came to the majors with Milwaukee
D. Williams - came to the majors with Milwaukee
Z. Davies - came to the majors with Milwaukee
A. Houser - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Nelson - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Anderson - obtained from Arizona after his second season in the majors
B. Suter - came to the majors with Milwaukee

So 13 of the 20 came up from the Milwaukee minor league system, 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and one (L. Cain) came back much later.

Tampa Bay

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

Y. Diaz - obtained from Cleveland after his second season in the majors
B. Lowe - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
K. Kiermaier - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
R. Arozarena - obtained from the Cardinals after his first season in the majors
I. Paredes - obtained from Detroit after his second season in the majors
W. Franco - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Wendle - obtained from Oakland after his second season in the majors
E. Longoria - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Pham - obtained from the Cardinals during his fifth season in the majors
A. Meadows - obtained from Pittsburgh during his rookie season

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Snell - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Glasnow - obtained from Pittsburgh during his third season in the majors
C. Archer - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
D. Rasmussen - obtained from Milwaukee during his second season in the majors
S. McClanahan - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
C. Morton - obtained late at age 35 after years in the majors
Z. Eflin - obtained late at age 29 after years in the majors
P. Fairbanks - obtained from Texas during his rookie season
R. Yarbrough - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Springs - obtained after three major league seasons with Texas and Boston

So 8 of the 20 came up from the Tampa Bay minor league system, 10 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and two (C. Morton and Z. Eflin) came much later.

These teams show that you can have sustained success by the vast majority of your production coming from either players you develop yourself or players you obtain as cost controlled players early in their ML careers.

And, although none of them have won a WS, if the Cardinals can achieve what these teams have done with pre-ARB and ARB players and add to that a much more robust $170, $180 million payroll, they should be able to reach considerably higher than even Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay.
CT is about winning championships...show me those World Series rings

Give those same front offices ~$180 payrolls to work with and WS becomes within reach. Personally I say $220 mil.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 12:40 pm**

juan good eye wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 12:36 pm
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 12:22 pm
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 10:52 am For those who think we who preach that the Cardinals can rebuild their player development to be the engine that drives consistent success are wrong, Cleveland (4th), Milwaukee (5th), and Tampa Bay (8th) are among the Top 10 organizations in regular season wins in the last decade - along with the Dodgers, Astros, Yankees, Red Sox, Braves, Cubs, and Cardinals.

Let's see where each of Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay got their top 10 position players and top 10 pitchers, by fWAR across 2016-2025, from.

Cleveland

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

J. Ramirez - came to the majors with Cleveland
F. Lindor - came to the majors with Cleveland
S. Kwan - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Gimenez - obtained from the Mets after his first season in the majors
C. Santana - came to the majors with Cleveland
R. Perez - came to the majors with Cleveland
J. Naylor - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors
J. Kipnis - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Rosario - came to Cleveland after his first four years with the Mets
M. Brantley - came to the majors with Cleveland

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

S. Bieber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Kluber - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Carrasco - came to the majors with Cleveland
T. Bauer - obtained from Arizona after his first season in the majors
M. Clevinger - came to the majors with Cleveland
E. Clase - obtained from Texas after his first season in the majors
T. Bibee - came to the majors with Cleveland
A. Civale - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Smith - came to the majors with Cleveland
C. Quantrill - obtained from the Padres during his second season in the majors

So 14 of the 20 came up from the Cleveland minor league system, and 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams

Milwaukee

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

C. Yelich - obtained from Miami after his fifth season in the majors
W. Adames - obtained from Tampa Bay during his fourth season in the majors
W. Contreras - obtained from Atlanta after his third season in the majors
L. Cain - came to the majors briefly with Milwaukee, went to KC, then came back later
R. Braun - came to the majors with Milwaukee
M. Pina - obtained from KC after his second ML season
T. Shaw - obtained from Boston after his second ML season
J. Chourio - came to the majors with Milwaukee
B. Turang - came to the majors with Milwaukee
S. Frelick - came to the majors with Milwaukee

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Woodruff - came to the majors with Milwaukee
F. Peralta - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Burnes - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Hader - came to the majors with Milwaukee
D. Williams - came to the majors with Milwaukee
Z. Davies - came to the majors with Milwaukee
A. Houser - came to the majors with Milwaukee
J. Nelson - came to the majors with Milwaukee
C. Anderson - obtained from Arizona after his second season in the majors
B. Suter - came to the majors with Milwaukee

So 13 of the 20 came up from the Milwaukee minor league system, 6 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and one (L. Cain) came back much later.

Tampa Bay

Top 10 Position Players by fWAR

Y. Diaz - obtained from Cleveland after his second season in the majors
B. Lowe - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
K. Kiermaier - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
R. Arozarena - obtained from the Cardinals after his first season in the majors
I. Paredes - obtained from Detroit after his second season in the majors
W. Franco - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Wendle - obtained from Oakland after his second season in the majors
E. Longoria - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Pham - obtained from the Cardinals during his fifth season in the majors
A. Meadows - obtained from Pittsburgh during his rookie season

Top 10 Pitchers by fWAR

B. Snell - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
T. Glasnow - obtained from Pittsburgh during his third season in the majors
C. Archer - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
D. Rasmussen - obtained from Milwaukee during his second season in the majors
S. McClanahan - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
C. Morton - obtained late at age 35 after years in the majors
Z. Eflin - obtained late at age 29 after years in the majors
P. Fairbanks - obtained from Texas during his rookie season
R. Yarbrough - came to the majors with Tampa Bay
J. Springs - obtained after three major league seasons with Texas and Boston

So 8 of the 20 came up from the Tampa Bay minor league system, 10 were added as pre-ARB/ARB year players from other teams, and two (C. Morton and Z. Eflin) came much later.

These teams show that you can have sustained success by the vast majority of your production coming from either players you develop yourself or players you obtain as cost controlled players early in their ML careers.

And, although none of them have won a WS, if the Cardinals can achieve what these teams have done with pre-ARB and ARB players and add to that a much more robust $170, $180 million payroll, they should be able to reach considerably higher than even Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay.
CT is about winning championships...show me those World Series rings
Give those same front offices ~$180 payrolls to work with and WS becomes within reach. Personally I say $220 mil.

Blah blah blah...prove it.

Again, you see it on CT. Championship or meh

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 12:41 pm**

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 12:35 pm And what do Cleveland (4th), Milwaukee (5th), and Tampa Bay (8th) all three have in common?

NO WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIPS since 1948 (Cleveland).

NONE ever for the Brewers & the Rays!

I thought the whole claim of the "tear it down" to the studs crowd was to build a WORLD SERIES WINNER.

Of course I've never said rebuilding their player development system was wrong, in fact I've been on board w/C. Bloom re-building the system since I started promoting his hiring before he was even hired or from Day 1.

But I also think it's idiotic to think the 2026/2027 Cardinals have to lose 100 games for this plan to be successful.

I also think adding major league or major league ready players via trades this offseason and thru smart, low cost free agent signings to field a competitive team will in no way, shape or form affect that player development plan.

Not sure why some can't understand this.

From the OP:

And, although none of them have won a WS, if the Cardinals can achieve what these teams have done with pre-ARB and ARB players and add to that a much more robust $170, $180 million payroll, they should be able to reach considerably higher than even Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay.

Posted: **22 Nov 2025 13:10 pm**

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 12:41 pm
rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Nov 2025 12:35 pm And what do Cleveland (4th), Milwaukee (5th), and Tampa Bay (8th) all three have in common?

NO WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIPS since 1948 (Cleveland).

NONE ever for the Brewers & the Rays!

I thought the whole claim of the "tear it down" to the studs crowd was to build a WORLD SERIES WINNER.

Of course I've never said rebuilding their player development system was wrong, in fact I've been on board w/C. Bloom re-building the system since I started promoting his hiring before he was even hired or from Day 1.

But I also think it's idiotic to think the 2026/2027 Cardinals have to lose 100 games for this plan to be successful.

I also think adding major league or major league ready players via trades this offseason and thru smart, low cost free agent signings to field a competitive team will in no way, shape or form affect that player development plan.

Not sure why some can't understand this.
From the OP:

And, although none of them have won a WS, if the Cardinals can achieve what these teams have done with pre-ARB and ARB players and add to that a much more robust $170, $180 million payroll, they should be able to reach considerably higher than even Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay.

BUT

Only if BDWJr ups the payroll to $180-200M so C. Bloom can fill in the missing pieces w/all star caliber talent thru trades or free agency.

That's the only way they put flag #12 above Busch Stadium, no team can do it completely from within.

And as we've discussed I just don't see Dewitt doing that unless he's at that magic 3M attendance and he's not getting there w/mediocre teams in 2026, 2027, 2028.

STLtoday.com

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