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Gutsy move. No we weren't already in our window. No we hadn't already cleared all our old contracts. No we didn't do everything perfectly and 100% efficiently.

And no we didn't already have 2 4+ fWAR pre-arb players.
-we have 14 games out of JD drew so far - about what JJW might have at this point had we promoted him instead of playing roster protection games.
-we have a small sampling from Rick Ankiel - but nothing proven

We also an aging McGwire and would later bring in Tino Martinez. And we knew nothing about Pujols yet.

1999 was a bust, but we still went and got Edgar Renteria when he was available and gave up a first round pick - Braden Looper and others to get him.

We invested and kept him 6 years, and from 2000-2004 averaged 95 wins. 3 trips to the NLCS, 1 pennant and that trade was a big piece of setting the ground for a dynasty.

Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

When Mo traded for him and most of that year……an OFer……couldn’t throw the baseball….and I’m sure that arm affected his hitting.
But our MO traded for a guy with an arm that couldn’t be used to throw a baseball in the OF
AND Gold Glove is most the laughable description of Ozuna……his scaling the OF wall with the ball landing at the FRONT of warning track to special comedy
Yet another example of MO having apparently no clue, no desire, no scouts, no care to thoroughly vet a player before trading for him

Goldfan wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:21 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

When Mo traded for him and most of that year……an OFer……couldn’t throw the baseball….and I’m sure that arm affected his hitting.
But our MO traded for a guy with an arm that couldn’t be used to throw a baseball in the OF
AND Gold Glove is most the laughable description of Ozuna……his scaling the OF wall with the ball landing at the FRONT of warning track to special comedy
Yet another example of MO having apparently no clue, no desire, no scouts, no care to thoroughly vet a player before trading for him

He was damaged goods.

All in all, I wouldn't have made that trade at that particular time. However:

Let's say you are making that trade and the Marlins want two of the following:
Jack Flaherty, Alex Reyes, Jordan Hicks, Sandy Alcantara, Zac Gallen.

Knowing what we knew about those names at the time (2017), that was actually actually actually a pretty (bleep) good crop of young pitching talent we had coming up right there. Throw in Dakota Hudson and Luke Weaver with that group and it was close in terms of talent to the 2012-13 wave (Miller, Rosenthal, Martinez, Wacha, Lynn, Kelly).

In hindsight, we picked the wrong names to trade but in 2017 I don't think you can fault the organization for picking Jack Black and A. Reyes to keep (assuming those were choices in the Ozuna trade).

My choice, would have been to hold onto ALL of those pitchers and not make that trade. And then rewind to the 2017 deadline and instead SELL (Matt Carpenter, Carlos Martinez, Oh, and T. Rosenthal who blew his elbow two weeks later) for a massive haul. THAT, was the time to "rebuild."

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Exactly I liked jocketty didn’t like mo but when you trade prospects for established veterans there’s still no guarantee it works out. It would be dumb for the cardinals to
Trade JJ and Doyle and other prospects where they are at

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:18 pm

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Exactly I liked jocketty didn’t like mo but when you trade prospects for established veterans there’s still no guarantee it works out. It would be dumb for the cardinals to
Trade JJ and Doyle and other prospects where they are at

Are you saying trading Looper was dumb in theory?

We are in a very similar place to the end of 1998, and trading Looper wasn’t was trading like JJW - we kept JD Drew and Ankiel. But we did trade 3-4 prospects behind them. A lot of our current prospects in the 4-15 ranked slots aren’t ever going to become major producers.

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Yet we still won a WS and then another 5 years later. Meaning you don’t have to be perfect as a GM to win. But we do have to be willing to make some big moves and we need to win several of them.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

It was a terrible trade but we did get Burleson in the compensation round.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:27 pm

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Yet we still won a WS and then another 5 years later. Meaning you don’t have to be perfect as a GM to win. But we do have to be willing to make some big moves and we need to win several of them.

Mo signed Berkman to a 1 year deal, Mo traded Edmonds for Freese (a prospect, oh no), Mo traded for and extended Holliday.

Walt Jocketty did great but his strategy wasn't going to work forever. They needed Luhnow to rebuild and reprioritize the farm system.

If they didn't do the Mulder trade they would have had Haren in the rotation behind Carpenter and Wainwright.

I know you're grinding really hard on a narrative here. We can't tell which one it is, but keep going.

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:36 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:27 pm

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Yet we still won a WS and then another 5 years later. Meaning you don’t have to be perfect as a GM to win. But we do have to be willing to make some big moves and we need to win several of them.

Mo signed Berkman to a 1 year deal, Mo traded Edmonds for Freese (a prospect, oh no), Mo traded for and extended Holliday.

Walt Jocketty did great but his strategy wasn't going to work forever. They needed Luhnow to rebuild and reprioritize the farm system.

If they didn't do the Mulder trade they would have had Haren in the rotation behind Carpenter and Wainwright.

I know you're grinding really hard on a narrative here. We can't tell which one it is, but keep going.

Mo did indeed start out a lot stronger than he finished. By his own admission he got snakebit and became scared to make big moves. Then he stayed way too long.

Bloom can’t afford to just be conservative and only trade the old guys. Mo’s recent predictable trades of Matz etc for a a bucket of balls is a nothing burger. Doesn’t move the needle.

Trading Nado isn’t going to move the needle either. How Bloom handles the potential Donovan trade could have a major impact however - maybe immediately. But even if he screws the pooch with Donovan - he will need to stay aggressive, and actually get more aggressive with what he’s willing to spend and potentially give up to get the right talent here in the near future. This can’t take another 3-5 years to move the MLB needle.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 22:06 pm

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:36 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:27 pm

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Yet we still won a WS and then another 5 years later. Meaning you don’t have to be perfect as a GM to win. But we do have to be willing to make some big moves and we need to win several of them.

Mo signed Berkman to a 1 year deal, Mo traded Edmonds for Freese (a prospect, oh no), Mo traded for and extended Holliday.

Walt Jocketty did great but his strategy wasn't going to work forever. They needed Luhnow to rebuild and reprioritize the farm system.

If they didn't do the Mulder trade they would have had Haren in the rotation behind Carpenter and Wainwright.

I know you're grinding really hard on a narrative here. We can't tell which one it is, but keep going.

Mo did indeed start out a lot stronger than he finished. By his own admission he got snakebit and became scared to make big moves. Then he stayed way too long.

Bloom can’t afford to just be conservative and only trade the old guys. Mo’s recent predictable trades of Matz etc for a a bucket of balls is a nothing burger. Doesn’t move the needle.

Trading Nado isn’t going to move the needle either. How Bloom handles the potential Donovan trade could have a major impact however - maybe immediately. But even if he screws the pooch with Donovan - he will need to stay aggressive, and actually get more aggressive with what he’s willing to spend and potentially give up to get the right talent here in the near future. This can’t take another 3-5 years to move the MLB needle.

It will according to many (mattmitch) and then it might likely extend into 2030, 2032, 2040, 2050.....you get the point.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:23 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:18 pm

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Exactly I liked jocketty didn’t like mo but when you trade prospects for established veterans there’s still no guarantee it works out. It would be dumb for the cardinals to
Trade JJ and Doyle and other prospects where they are at

Are you saying trading Looper was dumb in theory?

We are in a very similar place to the end of 1998, and trading Looper wasn’t was trading like JJW - we kept JD Drew and Ankiel. But we did trade 3-4 prospects behind them. A lot of our current prospects in the 4-15 ranked slots aren’t ever going to become major producers.

I get it you want to dump JJ and Doyle and other prospects in a futile attempt to try to win a wild card so they can lose in the first round but I disagree and thank god for the future of the cardinals bloom disagrees or else if they followed your plan the cardinals would be doomed for years to come

Goldfan wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:21 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

When Mo traded for him and most of that year……an OFer……couldn’t throw the baseball….and I’m sure that arm affected his hitting.
But our MO traded for a guy with an arm that couldn’t be used to throw a baseball in the OF
AND Gold Glove is most the laughable description of Ozuna……his scaling the OF wall with the ball landing at the FRONT of warning track to special comedy
Yet another example of MO having apparently no clue, no desire, no scouts, no care to thoroughly vet a player before trading for him

The known issues with tardiness and the infamous night club outing with Carlos Martinez should've been enough to stop Mo from making that trade.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 23:25 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:23 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 21:18 pm

C-Unit wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:59 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:48 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Yea that strategy worked out super well when they traded two starting pitchers for a .312 .376 .924 37hr 124 rbi gold glove all star outfielder named ozuna oh wait no it didn’t it kind of set the cardinals back and definitely helped kill the chances of a dynasty let’s go ahead and trade JJ and Doyle

That was Mo. The other was Jocketty.

Will Bloom be a Mo or a Jocketty? Or will he not even take big risks at all?

Was the Mulder trade a Mo or a Jocketty?

Exactly I liked jocketty didn’t like mo but when you trade prospects for established veterans there’s still no guarantee it works out. It would be dumb for the cardinals to
Trade JJ and Doyle and other prospects where they are at

Are you saying trading Looper was dumb in theory?

We are in a very similar place to the end of 1998, and trading Looper wasn’t was trading like JJW - we kept JD Drew and Ankiel. But we did trade 3-4 prospects behind them. A lot of our current prospects in the 4-15 ranked slots aren’t ever going to become major producers.

I get it you want to dump JJ and Doyle and other prospects in a futile attempt to try to win a wild card so they can lose in the first round but I disagree and thank god for the future of the cardinals bloom disagrees or else if they followed your plan the cardinals would be doomed for years to come

Except we weren't doomed after trading Looper. Or even after a bad trade like Haran.