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Alot of focus on the 99-2000 offseason. It was a landmark offseason that created anticipation for a new era of Cardinal Baseball.

Don't forget, that offseason also coincided with a wave of youth including blue chip prospects such as Ankiel and Drew (and then Pujols by 2001 although he really came from out of nowhere).

Say what you want about the success (or lack there of) of Drew/Ankiel, but I feel that the presence of that highly-touted youth, combined with the landmark offseason, somewhat parallels the template used by modern teams who try to develop talent and then bring in outside star players to compliment once the team is ready to take off. And don't forget, the 2000 team had plenty of youth to it beyond Drew/Ankiel. Players such as Polanco, Eli Marrero helped round out the roster into the early years of the new millenium. And... Tatis and Renteria had been acquired at 22 and 23 respectively, representing the textbook "young player with control" type of acquisitions that we all like to draw up.

In other words, that offseason was not just about the veterans. It was the culmination of all of the aspects of a rebuild, just the way we draw it up.

Mark McGwire was another component. When he came to St Louis, this was not just some all-star but the focal point of baseball coming to St Louis during the twilight of his prime years. What could possibly replicate that effect, in the modern day game? St Louis is still St Louis, but you all know the way the economics of this game have gone.

... the only parallel I could think of is if 2 or 3 years from now, we picked up Aaron Boone as manager (once the Yankees finally discard him) and then use his relationship with Aaron Judge to get him to approve a trade to St Louis. It would be similar to the LaRussa - McGwire effect.

Okay, I'm just brainstorming (and clearly dreaming). But that would be how you can kick this thing off for real, once Wetherholt, Doyle, Baez, and Rodriguez all have their feet wet in the big leagues to join Herrera.

Anyways, you tell me how we bring a star to St Louis.

One thing we can say is that the prospect evaluation is hopefully better in 2025 than it was in 2000, helping us predict better outcomes for Wetherholt and Doyle than what the organization got out of Drew and Ankiel.

In reality, what we can say for sure is that what we saw from 2000-2015 was the perfect storm where management, veteran players, culture, player development, and luck all came together for quite a long time. We may never have it that good again. It was better than most franchises could dream of.

It was a perfect storm, nothing more perfect than drafting Albert in the 13th round. And then getting 11 of the best years ever (at around $10m per). That will never happen again. Leadership then did a good job of surrounding him with good players for more than a decade.

I've wondered about attracting Chris Carpenter, Larry Walker, Berkman and Beltran to STL, among others. Could that happen again, without paying $20m plus per year? Walt, LaRussa and Duncan certainly helped make it happen and offered a winning culture every year.

You need a strong core of younger, cheaper players to build on. Maybe the Cards will figure it out again.

If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 04:36 am If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

i couldn't agree more with what has been posted in this thread. Not to beat a dead horse, but why in the world did the Cards discard that formula for success? If we can lay out their recipe so simply in print today, surely they could see how they were doing it. Did arrogance, laziness and stubbornness take over? Was Mo really that bad? Its almost unthinkable.

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 05:58 am i couldn't agree more with what has been posted in this thread. Not to beat a dead horse, but why in the world did the Cards discard that formula for success? If we can lay out their recipe so simply in print today, surely they could see how they were doing it. Did arrogance, laziness and stubbornness take over? Was Mo really that bad? Its almost unthinkable.

In my opinion - ownership got too wrapped up in "giving the people what they want" and desperately tried to keep the good times rolling after 2015 by being too willing to trade prospect talent that should have been held onto for established ML players to try to band aid the ML roster.

Eventually, when some of the prospects they kept were injured or otherwise did not pan out, they got caught with their pants down - having far too little young, cost controlled talent to make it work. And thus they have ended up where they are.

And a fair fraction of CT wants them to keep band aiding the ML roster instead of going all out to focus on rebuilding the necessary player development pipeline. Trying to "compete now" and trying to "rebuild the player development pipeline" are conflicting goals, not complementary ones. They conflict because, if you are trying to "compete now" you don't trade Gray, Donovan, etc. for much needed prospect talent. If you are trying to "rebuild the pipeline," you do.

You can't maximize both "competing now" and "rebuilding."

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 06:26 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 05:58 am i couldn't agree more with what has been posted in this thread. Not to beat a dead horse, but why in the world did the Cards discard that formula for success? If we can lay out their recipe so simply in print today, surely they could see how they were doing it. Did arrogance, laziness and stubbornness take over? Was Mo really that bad? Its almost unthinkable.

In my opinion - ownership got too wrapped up in "giving the people what they want" and desperately tried to keep the good times rolling after 2015 by being too willing to trade prospect talent that should have been held onto for established ML players to try to band aid the ML roster.

Eventually, when some of the prospects they kept were injured or otherwise did not pan out, they got caught with their pants down - having far too little young, cost controlled talent to make it work. And thus they have ended up where they are.

And a fair fraction of CT wants them to keep band aiding the ML roster instead of going all out to focus on rebuilding the necessary player development pipeline. Trying to "compete now" and trying to "rebuild the player development pipeline" are conflicting goals, not complementary ones. They conflict because, if you are trying to "compete now" you don't trade Gray, Donovan, etc. for much needed prospect talent. If you are trying to "rebuild the pipeline," you do.

You can't maximize both "competing now" and "rebuilding."

I think you need to know the difference between a 'band aid' and a 'bad deal.'

FACT: The Cards haven't signed a position player STARTER to a 1-2 year deal since Beltran, 2012.
FACT: The Cards didn't sign a starting pitcher to a 1 year deal from 2011-2023 (Lynn and Gibson '24)

No one forced Mo to trade for Ozuna or sign Leake/Fowler to 5 year deals. Mo could've signed Granderson and Lind instead of trading for Ozuna.

And of course we had to put up with Mo treating Grichuk like Edmonds and Adams like TGKS. But that's another story...

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 06:26 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 05:58 am i couldn't agree more with what has been posted in this thread. Not to beat a dead horse, but why in the world did the Cards discard that formula for success? If we can lay out their recipe so simply in print today, surely they could see how they were doing it. Did arrogance, laziness and stubbornness take over? Was Mo really that bad? Its almost unthinkable.

In my opinion - ownership got too wrapped up in "giving the people what they want" and desperately tried to keep the good times rolling after 2015 by being too willing to trade prospect talent that should have been held onto for established ML players to try to band aid the ML roster.

Eventually, when some of the prospects they kept were injured or otherwise did not pan out, they got caught with their pants down - having far too little young, cost controlled talent to make it work. And thus they have ended up where they are.

And a fair fraction of CT wants them to keep band aiding the ML roster instead of going all out to focus on rebuilding the necessary player development pipeline. Trying to "compete now" and trying to "rebuild the player development pipeline" are conflicting goals, not complementary ones. They conflict because, if you are trying to "compete now" you don't trade Gray, Donovan, etc. for much needed prospect talent. If you are trying to "rebuild the pipeline," you do.

You can't maximize both "competing now" and "rebuilding."

You can "compete now" and rebuild at the same time. Tell the Dodgers they cant do that! I am not suggesting we spend Dodgers money but their whole rationale of building their team is utilzing payroll to buy top talent allowing them to be competive year after year. They also use their resources to maintain a solid pipeline of young players on the farm to maintain this winning formula. You are arguing against yourself when you say the Cards didn't build with both ways being important in their good years. They didn't spend 'Dodger" money, but they made wise investments on current established players thru trades, free agency, and trading old vets for continuous resources for the pipeline. Edmonds, Renteria, Rolen, Berkman, and Beltran may not have been top tier Dodger like acquistions, but they were veteran players that were utilized to sprinkle in with the farm system in order to be competitive and entertaining to watch at least. Your way of doing it with the kids only focus, is only going to allow for bad and non-entertaining baseball for how many years? Who knows? You have all of your eggs in the prospect basket and their is a chance, as we all know, they are suspect until they aren't! I for one have said numerous times that I have no issue with your model, but it needs to be flexible with additional proven players sprinkled in. Your way will time out all the current prospects we have to be out of their prime while the next wave continues I know you say wait till 2028 or 2029 to spend the money on some vet additions, but why here is St. Louis? This is not Pittsburgh. This is not the Marlins. We are the St. Louis Cardinals who have a great recent history of putting an enjoyable and competive team on the field for everyone to enjoy. We also have the necessary resources to do both, but for some reason you want to save Bill's money for another 4-5 years so we can wath a minor league team play at Busch number 3. Seattle is another example of a team who does both vets and farm system growth every year, and is probably a better example than the Dodgers for our purposes and resources. You can trade the current vets to supplement the farm system while still spending money on proven players to coincide with the prospects. Other teams do this, but the Cardinals can't?

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 04:36 am If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Those teams also had a smart GM in W. Jocketty who drafted/built thru trades and FA signings that powerhouse that Mo inherited after Walt's firing ( ).

They now have the right guy to build that pipeline of minor league talent in C. Bloom.

Hopefully JJW will become that cornerstone, all-star player (I don't see Winn being an AS unless it's a PDJ charity pick out of necessity of having a player on the team).

But it's going to take Bloom making some monster trading deals/signings like Walt did (C. Carp, Rolen, Edmonds, Edgar, ect...) for those all-star players if the Cardinals are to build another dynasty.

It can't be done solely from within the minor league system and will take a large ($200M) payroll commitment from BDWJr..

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 08:56 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 04:36 am If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Those teams also had a smart GM in W. Jocketty who drafted/built thru trades and FA signings that powerhouse that Mo inherited after Walt's firing ( ).

They now have the right guy to build that pipeline of minor league talent in C. Bloom.

Hopefully JJW will become that cornerstone, all-star player (I don't see Winn being an AS unless it's a PDJ charity pick out of necessity of having a player on the team).

But it's going to take Bloom making some monster trading deals/signings like Walt did (C. Carp, Rolen, Edmonds, Edgar, ect...) for those all-star players if the Cardinals are to build another dynasty.

It can't be done solely from within the minor league system and will take a large ($200M) payroll commitment from BDWJr..

Exactly Rock! Cannot be built with only one direction. All directions need to work in unison and money needs to be spent.

Referring to the Cardinals' success from 2000-15 as a "dynasty" is not really accurate IMO. They won 2 WS, and lost 2 WS in that time frame. Yes, they were in the playoffs 12 of those 16 seasons, but just getting in the playoffs does not equal a dynasty over that time frame. That team was tremendous, and they could have been even more successful had they not had some major injuries to starting pitchers (Carpenter, Wainwright) missing the playoffs.

The last true Cardinal dynasty was in the 40's, when they won 3 World Series from 1942-1946, and lost one. The 60's team was close, winning in '64 and '67, but losing in '68. The '80's team was also close, winning in '82, but losing in both '85 and '87.

Pujols was the common denominator in all these grandiose theories folks are putting on here for the future rebuild.

Moves made were predicated on having that player to build around. Edmonds, Rolen..etc.

I realize those types just don't fall out of the sky but at some point you have to have one or you're just spinning your wheels.

Buy one, trade for one(if possible) or develop one.

Its like having the right QB in football. If you have that the rest usually takes care of itself.

zuck698 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 08:14 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 06:26 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 05:58 am i couldn't agree more with what has been posted in this thread. Not to beat a dead horse, but why in the world did the Cards discard that formula for success? If we can lay out their recipe so simply in print today, surely they could see how they were doing it. Did arrogance, laziness and stubbornness take over? Was Mo really that bad? Its almost unthinkable.

In my opinion - ownership got too wrapped up in "giving the people what they want" and desperately tried to keep the good times rolling after 2015 by being too willing to trade prospect talent that should have been held onto for established ML players to try to band aid the ML roster.

Eventually, when some of the prospects they kept were injured or otherwise did not pan out, they got caught with their pants down - having far too little young, cost controlled talent to make it work. And thus they have ended up where they are.

And a fair fraction of CT wants them to keep band aiding the ML roster instead of going all out to focus on rebuilding the necessary player development pipeline. Trying to "compete now" and trying to "rebuild the player development pipeline" are conflicting goals, not complementary ones. They conflict because, if you are trying to "compete now" you don't trade Gray, Donovan, etc. for much needed prospect talent. If you are trying to "rebuild the pipeline," you do.

You can't maximize both "competing now" and "rebuilding."

You can "compete now" and rebuild at the same time. Tell the Dodgers they cant do that! I am not suggesting we spend Dodgers money but their whole rationale of building their team is utilzing payroll to buy top talent allowing them to be competive year after year. They also use their resources to maintain a solid pipeline of young players on the farm to maintain this winning formula. You are arguing against yourself when you say the Cards didn't build with both ways being important in their good years. They didn't spend 'Dodger" money, but they made wise investments on current established players thru trades, free agency, and trading old vets for continuous resources for the pipeline. Edmonds, Renteria, Rolen, Berkman, and Beltran may not have been top tier Dodger like acquistions, but they were veteran players that were utilized to sprinkle in with the farm system in order to be competitive and entertaining to watch at least. Your way of doing it with the kids only focus, is only going to allow for bad and non-entertaining baseball for how many years? Who knows? You have all of your eggs in the prospect basket and their is a chance, as we all know, they are suspect until they aren't! I for one have said numerous times that I have no issue with your model, but it needs to be flexible with additional proven players sprinkled in. Your way will time out all the current prospects we have to be out of their prime while the next wave continues I know you say wait till 2028 or 2029 to spend the money on some vet additions, but why here is St. Louis? This is not Pittsburgh. This is not the Marlins. We are the St. Louis Cardinals who have a great recent history of putting an enjoyable and competive team on the field for everyone to enjoy. We also have the necessary resources to do both, but for some reason you want to save Bill's money for another 4-5 years so we can wath a minor league team play at Busch number 3. Seattle is another example of a team who does both vets and farm system growth every year, and is probably a better example than the Dodgers for our purposes and resources. You can trade the current vets to supplement the farm system while still spending money on proven players to coincide with the prospects. Other teams do this, but the Cardinals can't?

From where the Cardinals ARE, they would have to spend at the Dodgers level to both "compete now" and "rebuild effectively" in 2026. That's the problem.

The point is to get more young talent to the team by 2028, 2029 so the Cardinals can then spend at the Cardinals level of $170, $180 million and be able to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc.

zuck698 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 09:00 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 08:56 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 04:36 am If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Those teams also had a smart GM in W. Jocketty who drafted/built thru trades and FA signings that powerhouse that Mo inherited after Walt's firing ( ).

They now have the right guy to build that pipeline of minor league talent in C. Bloom.

Hopefully JJW will become that cornerstone, all-star player (I don't see Winn being an AS unless it's a PDJ charity pick out of necessity of having a player on the team).

But it's going to take Bloom making some monster trading deals/signings like Walt did (C. Carp, Rolen, Edmonds, Edgar, ect...) for those all-star players if the Cardinals are to build another dynasty.

It can't be done solely from within the minor league system and will take a large ($200M) payroll commitment from BDWJr..

Exactly Rock! Cannot be built with only one direction. All directions need to work in unison and money needs to be spent.

Thx zuck

And I also forgot to mention that aside from having Walt those teams had a hungry owner in BDWJr who was willing to spend whatever it took to acquire all that all-star talent and win!

That Dewitt is long gone.

Though still wealthy even then, he wasn't near as wealthy as he's become in the past decade due to MLB franchise values skyrocketing.

He became complacent the last ten years, happy to watch Mo run the team into the ground as long as he kept 3+M coming.

zuck698 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 09:00 am Exactly Rock! Cannot be built with only one direction. All directions need to work in unison and money needs to be spent.

Let me try it this way - going out and spending a bunch of money right now to add some expensive FAs is like spending to apply a fancy new paint job to a car with a frame that is rusted out - without knowing when, if ever, you're going to be able to fix the frame. And by the time you can fix the frame, the paint job might be aged and faded.

Go focus on fixing the frame first. Then when the car is solid, spend to paint it.

Let’s look at what the Cardinals currently have.

1B- Contreras/ Burleson
2B- Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman
SS- Winn
3B-Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman. Not considering Arenado
C- Herrera/Pages/Crooks/Bernal
LF- Nootbaar/Burleson/Church
CF- Scott/Church
RF-Walker/Burleson/Church
Bench - Fermin plus those listed

The obvious need here is a strong right hand hitting bat that can play outfield and/or DH

SP- Gray - Liberatore - McGreevey - Pallante - Leahy/Mathews/Doyle/Mautz

Pretty obvious that at least one top of the rotation arm is needed, and probably one middle. Those two additions would eliminate Pallante and that young group of arms, who become depth at AAA or bullpen additions.

I would add Maton back to the bullpen, and possibly Helsley. ( Ryan really wants to play in St. Louis) I’d find out what a one year deal would look like!

So, adding one bat, two starters, and possibly two relievers is all I believe is needed. With JJ you are actually adding two bats!
With this line up Scott and Walker have to improve. That is possible, but relies on those players willing to make the necessary adjustments. That’s the big question.

To acquire the players I’ve specified, the Cardinals have Contreras, Nootbaar, Arenado, Gorman, catching depth, and several minor players to get it done.
Helsley, Maton, and a top starter will require money.
To me, this is absolutely doable without taking years to be competitive again!

Ok, fire away and tell me HOW wrong I am!

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2025 04:36 am If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Matt,

Let's not try and rewrite history here.
Cardinals were good because of
1.) Albert Pujols - perhaps the greatest RH hitter of all time.

2.) They had the MV3 for years (Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen)

3.) Yadi was behind the plate handling the pitching staff. HOF player. Once in a generation type catcher for a team.

4.) Tony La Russa and Dave Duncan - Legendary manager who knew baseball. He knew how to put guys in positions to succeed. He also knew what types of playwrs he needed. (Not how much WAR or how much "value" a player may have been on a spreadsheet.) He knew that culture and clubhouse and gamers mattered. Dunc knew how to take guys and retool them to be successful based on their age, arsenal, etc. A true coach in every sense.

5.) Great additions of veterans and adding the "missing pieces" when needed. Not hoping we might get by and fill in with what we have.

There is certainly more, but this pretty much sums it up. The Cardinals were a bold, buttoned-up, organization that was unafraid and chased Championships as their goal.

Please don't try and compare that era of Cardinal Baseball to what you are hoping the Cardinals will do now. It isn't even a comparison, Matt.