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.277/17/103 RBIs!!! But this only amounted to 1.1 WAR? And 17 HRs at old Busch was a LOT.

NA has 1.2 WAR this year with much worse hitting numbers. Was Zeile that bad a fielder? I mean that's a BA and RBI total that Gorman could only dream of.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:00 am .277/17/103 RBIs!!! But this only amounted to 1.1 WAR? And 17 HRs at old Busch was a LOT.

NA has 1.2 WAR this year with much worse hitting numbers. Was Zeile that bad a fielder? I mean that's a BA and RBI total that Gorman could only dream of.

In 1993, he had a 112 wRC+ offensively, but a -18 TZ on defense (the worst of his career). The poor defense significantly offset the value of his hitting.

RBIs don't factor into WAR. That being said, my impression looking at the stats is that he outpunched his WAR that season. .352 OB%, 17 HR, 36 2B pretty good.

Defense may have been bad.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:00 am .277/17/103 RBIs!!! But this only amounted to 1.1 WAR? And 17 HRs at old Busch was a LOT.

NA has 1.2 WAR this year with much worse hitting numbers. Was Zeile that bad a fielder? I mean that's a BA and RBI total that Gorman could only dream of.

Even my kid-brain remembers him as pretty statuesque at 3B... and team decision to put him at 1B two years later just corroborates it.

There's a reason fans were so infatuated with Rolen when he came... the post-Pendleton 3Bs were pretty bad.

It sounds like catchers have always been able to play pretty much anywhere.

IIRC Zelle was a converted catcher who played an OK 3B. We had a fairly decent run of defensive 3B, Boyer, Pendleton, Torre, Oberkfell, Reitz.
A hard measuring stick against those guys.

Per Baseball Reference, Zeile's oWAR in 93 was 2.8 and his dWAR was -1.6.

WAR overrates defense

And it's way too subjective, hard to really quantify.

Who would you want in your OF/LIneup?

2015
J. Heyward
7.0 bWAR
13 HR
60 RBI's
.293 .359 .439 .797

OR

2010
M. Holliday
5.9 bWAR
28 HR
103 RBI
.312 .390 .532 .922

I know who I'd want and it isn't the guy w/the "higher" bWAR.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:51 am Who would you want in your OF/LIneup?

2015
J. Heyward
7.0 bWAR
13 HR
60 RBI's
.293 .359 .439 .797

OR

2010
M. Holliday
5.9 bWAR
28 HR
103 RBI
.312 .390 .532 .922

I know who I'd want and it isn't the guy w/the "higher" bWAR.

Great post and I can't imagine anyone would disagree with your conclusion

imadangman wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:56 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:51 am Who would you want in your OF/LIneup?

2015
J. Heyward
7.0 bWAR
13 HR
60 RBI's
.293 .359 .439 .797

OR

2010
M. Holliday
5.9 bWAR
28 HR
103 RBI
.312 .390 .532 .922

I know who I'd want and it isn't the guy w/the "higher" bWAR.

Great post and I can't imagine anyone would disagree with your conclusion

Thx

3dender wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:26 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:00 am .277/17/103 RBIs!!! But this only amounted to 1.1 WAR? And 17 HRs at old Busch was a LOT.

NA has 1.2 WAR this year with much worse hitting numbers. Was Zeile that bad a fielder? I mean that's a BA and RBI total that Gorman could only dream of.

Even my kid-brain remembers him as pretty statuesque at 3B... and team decision to put him at 1B two years later just corroborates it.

There's a reason fans were so infatuated with Rolen when he came... the post-Pendleton 3Bs were pretty bad.

Yep, TZ was a good doubles hitter and almost garden gnome-esque at 3B.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:51 am Who would you want in your OF/LIneup?

2015
J. Heyward
7.0 bWAR
13 HR
60 RBI's
.293 .359 .439 .797

OR

2010
M. Holliday
5.9 bWAR
28 HR
103 RBI
.312 .390 .532 .922

I know who I'd want and it isn't the guy w/the "higher" bWAR.

From 2010 to 2015 these are the two best seasons by a Cardinals OF according to fangraphs WAR model, fWAR . . .
Holliday 2010 - 6.2 fWAR
Heyward 2015 - 5.6 fWAR

bWAR has some crazy defensive values sometimes, but for some reason it's still the more widely used WAR model (probably because ESPN carried it for a while, maybe they still do). I did a deep dive into Heyward's 2015 season a while back and showed as much (I think it was in comparison to another OF in 2015, Bautista maybe).

FYI, Zeile's 1993 season was worth 1.6 fWAR.

rbirules wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 12:39 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:51 am Who would you want in your OF/LIneup?

2015
J. Heyward
7.0 bWAR
13 HR
60 RBI's
.293 .359 .439 .797

OR

2010
M. Holliday
5.9 bWAR
28 HR
103 RBI
.312 .390 .532 .922

I know who I'd want and it isn't the guy w/the "higher" bWAR.

From 2010 to 2015 these are the two best seasons by a Cardinals OF according to fangraphs WAR model, fWAR . . .
Holliday 2010 - 6.2 fWAR
Heyward 2015 - 5.6 fWAR

bWAR has some crazy defensive values sometimes, but for some reason it's still the more widely used WAR model (probably because ESPN carried it for a while, maybe they still do). I did a deep dive into Heyward's 2015 season a while back and showed as much (I think it was in comparison to another OF in 2015, Bautista maybe).

FYI, Zeile's 1993 season was worth 1.6 fWAR.

I remember you bringing up the Bautista comp a while back with his .377 OB% and 40 homers.

One thing to note about the Heyward season, I went back and looked at this a while back myself, he really started slow and didn't really pick it up until about July. Interesting season, but I guess when you look at the end numbers it all added up to a good season. A bit of everything.

Put Pham 2017 in that outfield with Holliday and Heyward, and you've got a heck of an outfield.

rbirules wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 12:39 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:51 am Who would you want in your OF/LIneup?

2015
J. Heyward
7.0 bWAR
13 HR
60 RBI's
.293 .359 .439 .797

OR

2010
M. Holliday
5.9 bWAR
28 HR
103 RBI
.312 .390 .532 .922

I know who I'd want and it isn't the guy w/the "higher" bWAR.

From 2010 to 2015 these are the two best seasons by a Cardinals OF according to fangraphs WAR model, fWAR . . .
Holliday 2010 - 6.2 fWAR
Heyward 2015 - 5.6 fWAR

bWAR has some crazy defensive values sometimes, but for some reason it's still the more widely used WAR model (probably because ESPN carried it for a while, maybe they still do). I did a deep dive into Heyward's 2015 season a while back and showed as much (I think it was in comparison to another OF in 2015, Bautista maybe).

FYI, Zeile's 1993 season was worth 1.6 fWAR.

Yes it does indeed have some crazy defensive values, I've never been able to figure out how they value defense.

(ESPN) probably why I (foolishly) keep using bWAR instead of fWAR as I just got use to going to BR.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 12:48 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 12:39 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 11:51 am Who would you want in your OF/LIneup?

2015
J. Heyward
7.0 bWAR
13 HR
60 RBI's
.293 .359 .439 .797

OR

2010
M. Holliday
5.9 bWAR
28 HR
103 RBI
.312 .390 .532 .922

I know who I'd want and it isn't the guy w/the "higher" bWAR.

From 2010 to 2015 these are the two best seasons by a Cardinals OF according to fangraphs WAR model, fWAR . . .
Holliday 2010 - 6.2 fWAR
Heyward 2015 - 5.6 fWAR

bWAR has some crazy defensive values sometimes, but for some reason it's still the more widely used WAR model (probably because ESPN carried it for a while, maybe they still do). I did a deep dive into Heyward's 2015 season a while back and showed as much (I think it was in comparison to another OF in 2015, Bautista maybe).

FYI, Zeile's 1993 season was worth 1.6 fWAR.

Yes it does indeed have some crazy defensive values, I've never been able to figure out how they value defense.

(ESPN) probably why I (foolishly) keep using bWAR instead of fWAR as I just got use to going to BR.

No worries rocko.

About 90% of the time when I see a thread titled "so and so-s WAR in XXXX" I know it's going to a post about how "the WAR total doesn't make sense at all, especially when compared to this other player's WAR in XXXX, and can somebody explain this to me?" Then I look at it and they are inevitably using bWAR and I show the fWAR values and say "does that look closer to what you expected?" The answer is almost always "yes", sometimes it's still not quite what they were expecting but it's still closer. And usually the original WAR value in question had an outlier dWAR due to bWAR's use of DRS, or whatever they used prior to DRS, like in Ziele's case.