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Ben makes the case for keeping Oli on as manager. My counter to that is in the most important game of his managerial career (Phillies, game 1) he froze at the worst possible moment and the team hasn’t been the same ever since. If the Cards ever make it back to the playoffs worrying about the manager’s ability to navigate the most critical portions of a game is the last thing that should be on our minds. I respect Oli for doing the best he can with a substandard roster from Mo this year but it’s time to move on.

Instilling a winning culture matters

Accountability matters

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 09:38 am Instilling a winning culture matters

Accountability matters

Exactly. Sound fundamental play matters, even when you have substandard hitting, guys should make the plays. They should be able to advance runners, hit sac flies, not make stupid baserunning errors, etc.... This needs to be restored. Marmol is clearly not the guy to do it.

Kind of unfortunate timing for this column. "Outperforming" one's Pythagorean W-L can simply be a function of losing several blow out games and winning a bunch of close ones. And as has been written above, this team is late-Matheny in terms of fundamentals, when Shildt had to come in and clean it up.

freed5179 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 09:51 am Kind of unfortunate timing for this column. "Outperforming" one's Pythagorean W-L can simply be a function of losing several blow out games and winning a bunch of close ones. And as has been written above, this team is late-Matheny in terms of fundamentals, when Shildt had to come in and clean it up.

Yes, and Shildt did clean it up, and was fired, and the Oli extended so he wouldn't feel pressure to win. Fortunately Mozo will be gone, but I have little hope that Oli will exit with him. Sad....

As long as the decision is Bloom’s and not based on saving money, I support it.

Would you be willing to sum up Hochman's case for those of us who don't have a subscription?

Marmol doesn’t make enough money for any decision on his employment to be about saving money.

That’s a shallow out.

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:13 am Marmol doesn’t make enough money for any decision on his employment to be about saving money.

That’s a shallow out.

Lol.

My point was I hope, if they do retain him, it’s not because of cost.

As you said, Oli doesn’t make that much. It would fiscally better to keep him instead of paying him + paying the new manager.

Got it, sport?

He needs to be gone. How can he not see, for example, that's Svanson is his best relief pitcher and should be closing?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:20 am

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:13 am Marmol doesn’t make enough money for any decision on his employment to be about saving money.

That’s a shallow out.

Lol.

My point was I hope, if they do retain him, it’s not because of cost.

As you said, Oli doesn’t make that much. It would fiscally better to keep him instead of paying him + paying the new manager.

Got it, sport?

Managers generally don't make a lot, so the salary isn't going to break anyone.

Dicktar2023 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:23 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:20 am

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:13 am Marmol doesn’t make enough money for any decision on his employment to be about saving money.

That’s a shallow out.

Lol.

My point was I hope, if they do retain him, it’s not because of cost.

As you said, Oli doesn’t make that much. It would fiscally better to keep him instead of paying him + paying the new manager.

Got it, sport?

Managers generally don't make a lot, so the salary isn't going to break anyone.

You’re talking about an org whose big signing was Maton for 1.2 million.

Also, about managers not making a lot, google Francona and Counsell.

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 09:38 am Instilling a winning culture matters

Accountability matters

+1

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:28 am

Dicktar2023 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:23 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:20 am

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:13 am Marmol doesn’t make enough money for any decision on his employment to be about saving money.

That’s a shallow out.

Lol.

My point was I hope, if they do retain him, it’s not because of cost.

As you said, Oli doesn’t make that much. It would fiscally better to keep him instead of paying him + paying the new manager.

Got it, sport?

Managers generally don't make a lot, so the salary isn't going to break anyone.

You’re talking about an org whose big signing was Maton for 1.2 million.

Also, about managers not making a lot, google Francona and Counsell.

Stay on topic

Google “Oliver Marmol contract”

You are the epitome of distraction and moving goal post.

So, Hochman's argument seems to hang on two points. One, that the 2025 team is slightly overperforming, based on the Pythagorean prediction, and two that the bullpen ERA is not bad. But is three games above the Pythagorean prediction remarkable? Hochman doesn't give us any context or standard deviation. Is there reason to think that those extra games have anything to do with the manager, rather than, say, Hererra hitting more hrs than expected? And is the bullpen ERA really a measure of how well the relievers are being used? Maybe, but indirectly.

Of course, there is a shell game here. When you want to make the case that the manager or coaches are good, you point to specific team successes and give them credit. But when someone notices that team generally is failing, you blame individual player performances.

You can look at the data Hochman has presented and conclude that Marmol is, at best, a mediocre manager who has benefitted from some good young relievers.

Is that enough to keep him another season? Maybe in an average year you say why not let him complete his contract. But under the current circumstances--where the organization should above all else be trying to prove to the fan base that the Mozeliak era is over--no way. Marmol isn't even close to a good enough manager or team leader to be considered for the job.

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:13 am Marmol doesn’t make enough money for any decision on his employment to be about saving money.

That’s a shallow out.

This. I would bet anything that Marmol makes less than a million/year.