STLtoday.com

https://www.mlb.com/player/matthew-libe ... &year=2025

https://www.mlb.com/player/andre-pallan ... &year=2025

Liberatore has thrown 90 pitches 8 times this season. Only 1 time since July 1.

Pallante has thrown 90 pitches 18 times this season. 8 times since July 1.

Liberatore 25 years old.

Pallante 26 years old.

Pallante ERA 5.28

Liberatore ERA 4.35

Pallante's ERA in August was 8.67 and he was left in the games to throw 90 pitcher 5 of 6 August starts.

I would assert if Pallante was pulled from the game when it was clear he was tiring and Liberatore was left in the game when he was tiring those ERA numbers would look different. Perhaps a baseball writer or report could ask Marmol about that disparity.

Maybe the club could add you to the payroll to tell them when their SPs are tiring.

jcgmoi wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 07:23 am Maybe the club could add you to the payroll to tell them when their SPs are tiring.

LOL - I'd like to hear Marmol discuss the disparity.

Last night Liberatore 4 innings 65 pitches 4 relieve pitchers used.

If you’re constantly pulled after 5 innings/ 70-some pitches; or never allowed to approach or exceed 100 pitches in a game, why, that’s all you’ll ever get out of your young starters

Is Nolan Ryan right?

Yea, Mo sucks. Thank god his reign of terror is almost over.

IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

bretto12 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 11:30 am IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

Perhaps but then why is Pallante throwing 90+ so much? People are more excited about the prospects of Liberatore being a good starter because his ERA is lower but the reason it's lower is because Marmol doesn't leave him out there to get shelled like he does with Pallante. Little chance Pallante would have been pulled after 65 pitches and 4 runs.

Is it Marmol? Is it the front office?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 12:36 pm

bretto12 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 11:30 am IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

Perhaps but then why is Pallante throwing 90+ so much? People are more excited about the prospects of Liberatore being a good starter because his ERA is lower but the reason it's lower is because Marmol doesn't leave him out there to get shelled like he does with Pallante. Little chance Pallante would have been pulled after 65 pitches and 4 runs.

Is it Marmol? Is it the front office?

Without a doubt the ERA's would be different if they left Liberatore in longer. I think the difference is pretty straightforward and has been discussed extensively on 101.1 and the broadcasters. Pallante maintains velocity, but his stuff is straight and he doesn't miss that many ABs. Therefore, he pitches longer because his results are pretty consistent pitches 1-95, even if they are not good. Liberatore seems to consistently lose velocity around pitch 60 or so. If they left him in longer, he would simply become a batting practice pitcher. His in ability to maintain velocity certainly calls into question whether he really will be a starter long term. His pitches have much more movement than Pallante's which gives him much higher upside potential. But, if he can't maintain velocity, then he is a relief pitcher.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 13:00 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 12:36 pm

bretto12 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 11:30 am IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

Perhaps but then why is Pallante throwing 90+ so much? People are more excited about the prospects of Liberatore being a good starter because his ERA is lower but the reason it's lower is because Marmol doesn't leave him out there to get shelled like he does with Pallante. Little chance Pallante would have been pulled after 65 pitches and 4 runs.

Is it Marmol? Is it the front office?

Without a doubt the ERA's would be different if they left Liberatore in longer. I think the difference is pretty straightforward and has been discussed extensively on 101.1 and the broadcasters. Pallante maintains velocity, but his stuff is straight and he doesn't miss that many ABs. Therefore, he pitches longer because his results are pretty consistent pitches 1-95, even if they are not good. Liberatore seems to consistently lose velocity around pitch 60 or so. If they left him in longer, he would simply become a batting practice pitcher. His in ability to maintain velocity certainly calls into question whether he really will be a starter long term. His pitches have much more movement than Pallante's which gives him much higher upside potential. But, if he can't maintain velocity, then he is a relief pitcher.

Look at Liberatore's ERA monthly. It got progressively worse. 6 starts in August. He threw 90+ pitches 5 of 6 starts with an ERA for August over 8.

I don't live in St Louis or listen to that station but if they are justifying that then the must have failed math in school. Bob Gibson during a rain delay in an old broadcast from Shannon's said what happens when you are tired is your breaking pitches don't break as sharply and that's why he threw more fastballs in the late innings. It's not about velocity. Clearly Pallante was tired and they continued to have him throw 90+ most of the time.

Libby:
-Assured of being in the 2026 starting rotation
-Wasn't converted to being a starter in 2025 until final week of spring training
-Didn't train in the last offseason to start
-Smart to limit is innings/pitch count so as not to tax his arm or risk injury

Pallante:
-Won't be in the 2026 starting rotation unless Oli (if he's still the Manager) has lost his mind
-Has trained to start since going back to AAA in 2024
-Easily expendable since he's (likely) NOT in the 2026 starting rotation plans, no worries if he gets hurt
-Fine to work him like the rented mule he is to save bullpen innings

bretto12 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 11:30 am IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

+1 not to mention the increased spin rates that wreck arms. But it has to be done because we see what happens to pitch to contact pitchers in the modern times

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 16:40 pm

bretto12 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 11:30 am IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

+1 not to mention the increased spin rates that wreck arms. But it has to be done because we see what happens to pitch to contact pitchers in the modern times

What happens? Which pitchers? Whether you throw in the high 90s or mid-80s, the successful pitcher has command over his pitches, can change speeds, and “keeps ‘em guessing”.

And I’d say that arm injuries are just as prevalent in this modern pitch-limited era, as before. What gives there?

I am going to shout this:

THE PITCH COUNT PHILOSOPHY HAS GOT TO GO

MLB organizations, including field management, are subject to the fads and fashions of the times. One current fashion is the pitch count. The premise is simple, that pitch counts reduce the long-term stress on the arm from fatigue, making him more effective and less prone to injury. I hear posters defend this often in forums such as this. Here's the problem: though it sounds simple and plausible, IT ISN'T TRUE! Pitcher arm injuries have been rising, and rising for some time. Pitcher arm injuries among starters are greate now than when the likes of Gibson, Drysdale, and Marichal blew smoke for 11 innings tossing 140 pitches. Medical technology has advanced now to where injuries that may have had long recoveries or ended a career back then can now get a pitcher back on the mound and healed, and relatively quickly. But don't confuse that with frequency if pitching arm injuries.

Let these f'ing guys go 8-9 innings. Expect them to go 8-9-innings. I think they'll perform better, and eliminating the need for a revolving door, paint-by-numbers bullpen will make bullpens better, requiring fewer pitchers. This opens a roster spot or two for more position players.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 13:16 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 13:00 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 12:36 pm

bretto12 wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 11:30 am IN the past, pitchers threw in the 80's and some occasionally touched 90. New every pitch is max effort and almost everyone hit 95 to 100. This takes a lot of energy out of the pitcher and puts a lot of strain on the arm. Keeping him in the 70 to 80 pitch realm, hopefully, keeps him from hurting his arm and from arm fatigue that hurts his next start.

Perhaps but then why is Pallante throwing 90+ so much? People are more excited about the prospects of Liberatore being a good starter because his ERA is lower but the reason it's lower is because Marmol doesn't leave him out there to get shelled like he does with Pallante. Little chance Pallante would have been pulled after 65 pitches and 4 runs.

Is it Marmol? Is it the front office?

Without a doubt the ERA's would be different if they left Liberatore in longer. I think the difference is pretty straightforward and has been discussed extensively on 101.1 and the broadcasters. Pallante maintains velocity, but his stuff is straight and he doesn't miss that many ABs. Therefore, he pitches longer because his results are pretty consistent pitches 1-95, even if they are not good. Liberatore seems to consistently lose velocity around pitch 60 or so. If they left him in longer, he would simply become a batting practice pitcher. His in ability to maintain velocity certainly calls into question whether he really will be a starter long term. His pitches have much more movement than Pallante's which gives him much higher upside potential. But, if he can't maintain velocity, then he is a relief pitcher.

Look at Liberatore's ERA monthly. It got progressively worse. 6 starts in August. He threw 90+ pitches 5 of 6 starts with an ERA for August over 8.

I don't live in St Louis or listen to that station but if they are justifying that then the must have failed math in school. Bob Gibson during a rain delay in an old broadcast from Shannon's said what happens when you are tired is your breaking pitches don't break as sharply and that's why he threw more fastballs in the late innings. It's not about velocity. Clearly Pallante was tired and they continued to have him throw 90+ most of the time.

Yea, but Gibson didn't lose 10 mph off his fastball either during starts. He also hit people that sat on his pitches...My dad loved Gibson and almost every game he took me to when I was growing up was a Gibson pitched game. Yep Liberatore has gotten worse. He has worn down and getting beat up. Maybe he gets better next year maybe not. My point was that Pallante won't get better, he is who he is. Liberatore has a bit more upside, but maybe no much. We will see.

Kinda odd that some say it is too difficult to throw a high number of pitches at a high velocity .
Unsure what Bob Gibson's speed was for his fastballs but in1968 he had about 28 complete (9 inning games ) and did just great.

The Cardinals No. 1 pick in the past draft , Liam Doyle, throws over 100 MPH and last year vs Miami Ohio threw 104 pitched in 6.2 innings in a game.
Think this 'pitch count' gets overblown a lot . Don't remember in 1968 anyone worried that Bob Gibson's arm might fall off . The guy went 3 times through the lineups and still ended the year with a 1.12 ERA lowest in history to this day .

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 08:22 am

jcgmoi wrote: ↑10 Sep 2025 07:23 am Maybe the club could add you to the payroll to tell them when their SPs are tiring.

LOL - I'd like to hear Marmol discuss the disparity.

Last night Liberatore 4 innings 65 pitches 4 relieve pitchers used.

Thats your biggest worry? That a team that is out of the playoff picture are choosing not to push their young pitchers in September? You looking for style points?