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Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

You make a super point- depending on quality of rotation. In a stud rotation he is a fine three and flourish’s there. Bad rotation he is a two and may struggle.

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

In most seasons you need a couple of guys to develop in order to have a good team. What bugs most of us is that we have no absolute ace, and only two reliable pitchers. SG is a good pitcher. He would be a number 2 starter in a good rotation. His problem is only going 5-6 innings. It is nice to have two starters who can consistently give you 7 innings and a chance to win. That saves your pen 40% of the games so they are there to cover 4 or 5 innings for your back end starters. SG rarely goes more than 6 innings. Libby has developed well and as you said, is a #2-3 starter. Then we have absolutely no one who is reliable, and not much in the minors. McG showed pretty well, has been hit again in AAA, but could at least be a decent back of the rotation starter. I am not aware of anyone else down on the farm to help this season. So we have the three amigos, Fedde, MM, and AP who are the back end. It sucks to start a game from behind a LOT of the time. I suppose they could give Matz a start.... but he isn't stretched out.

I really don't see this team making trade deadline deals for pitching.........I hope to be wrong, but I doubt it.

His performance is one of the few bright spots of 2025 for the Cardinals. It is great to see him become an effective starting pitcher and gives me hope that he will only get better in the coming seasons.

Furthermore... Maybe the clouds part and angels sing and JW and Gorman have decent second half seasons, and getting IH back in the middle of the order, maybe the offense gets rolling again. Fine. You can at least have hope there. But the team is going nowhere with only two starting pitchers. Imagine playing a stretch of games against really good teams with only two starters. These guys are blowing up against poorer teams..... I don't know where the reinforcements are coming from for the rotation, but they need them. McG should be up to sink or swim... Does AP have options left? We shall see.

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

Again, the Cardinals do not make BASEBALL DECISIONS and have not for the past decade.
Mikolas is on the roster because of his contract.
Pallente is a failed reliever whom they hoped could be repurposed as a cheap starter.
Meanwhile, two pitchers who would almost certainly perform better than those 2, are banned from the rotation.
And none of these decisions were made with any consideration of winning games.

Melville wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:15 am

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

Again, the Cardinals do not make BASEBALL DECISIONS and have not for the past decade.
Mikolas is on the roster because of his contract.
Pallente is a failed reliever whom they hoped could be repurposed as a cheap starter.
Meanwhile, two pitchers who would almost certainly perform better than those 2, are banned from the rotation.
And none of these decisions were made with any consideration of winning games.

Of course not. It is a marketing organization. BP village, Cards hall of fame red jackets, endless promotions. The baseball brain trust side completely fell apart about the time Taveras died. They have been in panic mode ever since. The Walt method of bringing in Vets like Nado and Goldy, but not surrounding them with much. They even tried getting back to fundamentals and "the Cardinal Way" by hiring Shildt. He tightened up the fundamentals, and then was promptly fired to install Oli. They are a rudderless ship on the baseball side of things. They have no plan and direction. Lots of cheap moves, and when they do spend money, rarely do they spend it well. SG has been pretty good value, I will give them that, but then they never got another reliable veteran starter and of course wasted tons of resources on the likes of MM, Fowler, etc....

Hopefully ownership will give Bloom a decent budget and let him do what he wants. Then we will know if it was all on MO....

bccardsfan wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:15 am

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

Again, the Cardinals do not make BASEBALL DECISIONS and have not for the past decade.
Mikolas is on the roster because of his contract.
Pallente is a failed reliever whom they hoped could be repurposed as a cheap starter.
Meanwhile, two pitchers who would almost certainly perform better than those 2, are banned from the rotation.
And none of these decisions were made with any consideration of winning games.

Of course not. It is a marketing organization. BP village, Cards hall of fame red jackets, endless promotions. The baseball brain trust side completely fell apart about the time Taveras died. They have been in panic mode ever since. The Walt method of bringing in Vets like Nado and Goldy, but not surrounding them with much. They even tried getting back to fundamentals and "the Cardinal Way" by hiring Shildt. He tightened up the fundamentals, and then was promptly fired to install Oli. They are a rudderless ship on the baseball side of things. They have no plan and direction. Lots of cheap moves, and when they do spend money, rarely do they spend it well. SG has been pretty good value, I will give them that, but then they never got another reliable veteran starter and of course wasted tons of resources on the likes of MM, Fowler, etc....

Hopefully ownership will give Bloom a decent budget and let him do what he wants. Then we will know if it was all on MO....

The Walt method of bringing in Vets like Nado and Goldy, but not surrounding them with much.

=================
- This is exactly the problem. They learned all the wrong lessons from their success under Walt/TLR/DD.

* Build a team that can just make it in as 2004-2005 vs 2006/2011 shows that winning is just a crapshoot. In reality, you have to have enough elite talent to make the playoffs & do well in playoff structure/system. You can make the playoffs and even win a 'a game or two' with good, but not elite talent by feasting on mediocre teams, but to go far on the playoffs, you must have enough elite talent.
* The manager doesn't matter much provided you have a good system in place. Oli has disproved that.
* it is ok to knowingly go into the season with a flawed team and hope for the best, you can fix it at the trade deadline. As we learned in 2023, the early games count too.
* Standing pat at the deadline will send a vote of confidence to the team. As we learned in 2015, players can see a lack of activity as the FO not having their back.

bccardsfan wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:15 am

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

Again, the Cardinals do not make BASEBALL DECISIONS and have not for the past decade.
Mikolas is on the roster because of his contract.
Pallente is a failed reliever whom they hoped could be repurposed as a cheap starter.
Meanwhile, two pitchers who would almost certainly perform better than those 2, are banned from the rotation.
And none of these decisions were made with any consideration of winning games.

Of course not. It is a marketing organization. BP village, Cards hall of fame red jackets, endless promotions. The baseball brain trust side completely fell apart about the time Taveras died. They have been in panic mode ever since. The Walt method of bringing in Vets like Nado and Goldy, but not surrounding them with much. They even tried getting back to fundamentals and "the Cardinal Way" by hiring Shildt. He tightened up the fundamentals, and then was promptly fired to install Oli. They are a rudderless ship on the baseball side of things. They have no plan and direction. Lots of cheap moves, and when they do spend money, rarely do they spend it well. SG has been pretty good value, I will give them that, but then they never got another reliable veteran starter and of course wasted tons of resources on the likes of MM, Fowler, etc....

Hopefully ownership will give Bloom a decent budget and let him do what he wants. Then we will know if it was all on MO....

Excellent post!
As I was first and best to understand and explain to all several years ago (and continuously since), the Cardinals are not a baseball organization with a marketing department.
It is a marketing company with a baseball department.
That is essential to understanding all things related to the Cardinals.

Want a comparison for Libby but a right handed one? Take a look at 2024, guy named Pallante. All I'm saying is don't get too high on Libby. Next year he could be the 2025 version of Pallante.

What if Mo/Oli had kept him in the pen' they way they were going to until the final days of STing when he finally got his ONE spring start?

No proof but you have to think C. Bloom, who drafted Libby, stepped in at the last minute and said "No Way" is he going to be in the bullpen!

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

What if you never posted

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 14:21 pm What if Mo/Oli had kept him in the pen' they way they were going to until the final days of STing when he finally got his ONE spring start?

No proof but you have to think C. Bloom, who drafted Libby, stepped in at the last minute and said "No Way" is he going to be in the bullpen!

Makes you wonder if he saw something in him that Mozo totally missed?

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 16:51 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 14:21 pm What if Mo/Oli had kept him in the pen' they way they were going to until the final days of STing when he finally got his ONE spring start?

No proof but you have to think C. Bloom, who drafted Libby, stepped in at the last minute and said "No Way" is he going to be in the bullpen!

Makes you wonder if he saw something in him that Mozo totally missed?

Pretty sure he did since he was a Rays first round pick under Bloom.

Melville wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 13:22 pm

bccardsfan wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:15 am

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

Again, the Cardinals do not make BASEBALL DECISIONS and have not for the past decade.
Mikolas is on the roster because of his contract.
Pallente is a failed reliever whom they hoped could be repurposed as a cheap starter.
Meanwhile, two pitchers who would almost certainly perform better than those 2, are banned from the rotation.
And none of these decisions were made with any consideration of winning games.

Of course not. It is a marketing organization. BP village, Cards hall of fame red jackets, endless promotions. The baseball brain trust side completely fell apart about the time Taveras died. They have been in panic mode ever since. The Walt method of bringing in Vets like Nado and Goldy, but not surrounding them with much. They even tried getting back to fundamentals and "the Cardinal Way" by hiring Shildt. He tightened up the fundamentals, and then was promptly fired to install Oli. They are a rudderless ship on the baseball side of things. They have no plan and direction. Lots of cheap moves, and when they do spend money, rarely do they spend it well. SG has been pretty good value, I will give them that, but then they never got another reliable veteran starter and of course wasted tons of resources on the likes of MM, Fowler, etc....

Hopefully ownership will give Bloom a decent budget and let him do what he wants. Then we will know if it was all on MO....

Excellent post!
As I was first and best to understand and explain to all several years ago (and continuously since), the Cardinals are not a baseball organization with a marketing department.
It is a marketing company with a baseball department.
That is essential to understanding all things related to the Cardinals.

Sadly, with current ownership, this is true. These guys are all about product, promotion, Price, Packaging, PR, and sales.

Winning championships is nice but only if it improves the bottom line.

Melville wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 13:22 pm

bccardsfan wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:15 am

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:44 am Liberatore isnt an ace by any means, but one can argue that he's a low 2 or high 3, depending on the quality of the rotation, but I digress.

As the season has gone on, Mikolas has only 5 QS out of 17 and more often than not being hit hard. Arguably, his contract is why he is even in the rotation. Fedde and Pallente are not far behind. At best none of them are better than BOTR pitchers. Can you imagine if Liberatore hadn't established himself in the rotation the way he did? We wouldn't be talking about if we have a shot at the WC, we'd be talking almost without exception about who will be moved by the trade deadline.

Again, the Cardinals do not make BASEBALL DECISIONS and have not for the past decade.
Mikolas is on the roster because of his contract.
Pallente is a failed reliever whom they hoped could be repurposed as a cheap starter.
Meanwhile, two pitchers who would almost certainly perform better than those 2, are banned from the rotation.
And none of these decisions were made with any consideration of winning games.

Of course not. It is a marketing organization. BP village, Cards hall of fame red jackets, endless promotions. The baseball brain trust side completely fell apart about the time Taveras died. They have been in panic mode ever since. The Walt method of bringing in Vets like Nado and Goldy, but not surrounding them with much. They even tried getting back to fundamentals and "the Cardinal Way" by hiring Shildt. He tightened up the fundamentals, and then was promptly fired to install Oli. They are a rudderless ship on the baseball side of things. They have no plan and direction. Lots of cheap moves, and when they do spend money, rarely do they spend it well. SG has been pretty good value, I will give them that, but then they never got another reliable veteran starter and of course wasted tons of resources on the likes of MM, Fowler, etc....

Hopefully ownership will give Bloom a decent budget and let him do what he wants. Then we will know if it was all on MO....

Excellent post!
As I was first and best to understand and explain to all several years ago (and continuously since), the Cardinals are not a baseball organization with a marketing department.
It is a marketing company with a baseball department.
That is essential to understanding all things related to the Cardinals.

This was all obvious to anyone with half a brain. You give yourself credit where it isn’t due as usual, but it’s not about you, never about you, even though you use the word “I” in every single one of your posts…