STLtoday.com

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm**

We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:10 pm**

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.

16 tons and deeper in debt.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm**

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.

The goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm**

OldRed wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:10 pm
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.
16 tons and deeper in debt.

And ' another day older'

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:25 pm**

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.
The goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?

Edman

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:26 pm**

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:25 pm
Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.
The goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?
Edman

That was last year, not two years ago.

But even ok Edman, .718 OPS, 101 OPS+, 1.7 bWAR. Solid player, but he’s no star. This team needs stars.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:26 pm**

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:26 pm
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:25 pm
Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.
The goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?
Edman
That was last year, not two years ago.

Yes, I stand corrected

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:31 pm**

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.
The goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?

Well said!

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:32 pm**

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:26 pmThat was last year, not two years ago.

But even ok Edman, .718 OPS, 101 OPS+, 1.7 bWAR. Solid player, but he’s no star. This team needs stars.

I would also add that Edman was not a sell move. We received Fedde for him in an attempt to make the playoffs. I would argue that they should have been honest with themselves and tried to sell with Edman rather than compete and perhaps we'd have another young player we could add to the list rather than a guy we're about to DFA.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:36 pm**

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:32 pm
Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:26 pmThat was last year, not two years ago.

But even ok Edman, .718 OPS, 101 OPS+, 1.7 bWAR. Solid player, but he’s no star. This team needs stars.
I would also add that Edman was not a sell move. We received Fedde for him in an attempt to make the playoffs. I would argue that they should have been honest with themselves and tried to sell with Edman rather than compete and perhaps we'd have another young player we could add to the list rather than a guy we're about to DFA.

I would agree. I also still think the mistake wasn’t trading for Fedde. The mistake was not shopping him this past offseason. Maybe they did and there were no buyers. Given Edman had a better long term record it’s possible he would have had more trade value. But Fedde was also coming off a good year and Edman was hurt for almost all of 2024. So idk. Probably were hoping they would get a return like we got when we dealt Bader for Montgomery. But Fedde took a step back instead of a step forward like Monty did.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:41 pm**

Are you suggesting it would have been better to keep Montgomery, Flaherty, Hicks, DeJong and others?

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:42 pm**

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.
The goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?

What of it? If we had non-tendered these guys (or giving Monty a QO and taken the draft pick) we wouldn't be in a materially different position now.

Like I said in the OP - we didn't have a choice but it also didn't help us. We need to be looking for an entirely different strategy to improve this team.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:43 pm**

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pmThe goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?

I've said it before, but it appears that Matt was right and we should have sold harder in 2023, because it's very likely that trading Arenado and/or Goldschmidt that year would have netted us some much higher tier prospects than what we got from those players you listed. Probably a major league ready prospect plus a highly ranked prospect each.

But we went for the middle ground. And that appears what we're trying to do again this year. We may sell, but we're not getting much for an Arenado, Fedde, or Helsley now. We may buy, but we aren't trading Wetherholt, Mathews, or any other highly ranked prospect because it would decimate our thin farm system, so we're not getting any high level players back. We're probably just going to ride it out again and end up in the same position last year as we were this year.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:47 pm**

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:43 pm
Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pmThe goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?
I've said it before, but it appears that Matt was right and we should have sold harder in 2023, because it's very likely that trading Arenado and/or Goldschmidt that year would have netted us some much higher tier prospects than what we got from those players you listed. Probably a major league ready prospect plus a highly ranked prospect each.

But we went for the middle ground. And that appears what we're trying to do again this year. We may sell, but we're not getting much for an Arenado, Fedde, or Helsley now. We may buy, but we aren't trading Wetherholt, Mathews, or any other highly ranked prospect because it would decimate our thin farm system, so we're not getting any high level players back. We're probably just going to ride it out again and end up in the same position last year as we were this year.

getting game changing prospects for high priced rentals is a mistaken fantasy. Its not how MLB works anymore. We gave up no one to get Nado when he was at his prime. He's paid market value in $ by his team so there's no surplus TV to go back the other way.

If you want to trade, then trade more vets for vets and try to win those trades. Bader for Monty wasn't that bad of a deal. Bottenfeld for Jim Edmonds. Do things like that. The "prospects" that GMs are actually willing to give up for 8 figure contracts are fools gold.

Also these types of trades I'm describing aren't "selling". They are proven value for proven value. And much more likely to be successful.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:49 pm**

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:42 pm
Futuregm2 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:24 pm
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:08 pm We were in last place, so I'm not saying there was a better choice, but honestly, I'm underwhelmed at the return. Sagesse is a 0 WAR player, with awful defense at 3b. John King is a JAG. Rom was a disaster. A few people are excited about this guy or that guy but what if they disappoint as well once (if) they make the show? Its a long road but its been 2 years already.

All that to say - we aren't going to turn into a pennant winner by dumping AS or former AS talent for whatever filler the other GM is willing to let go of. We get better thru targeted trades for either existing players or possibly prospects we've vetted, and thru drafting and FA and Intl FA markets. And yes spending $ wisely but not pinching pennies.

As far as the trade deadline goes - seems like anyone we trade away needs to be for existing MLB players in order to make this a better team. Dumping roster talent for no-name prospects isn't going to move the needle now or probably even way into the future.
The goods we sold were are currently

Flaherty- 5-9 4.84 ERA 0.1 bWAR
Montgomery- Out for year, and was horrible last year. We basically sold at his peak.
Stratton- 7.71 ERA -0.5 bWAR
PDJ- .592 OPS 0.2 bWAR
Hicks- 1-5 6.49 ERA -1.1 bWAR

Am I forgetting anyone?
What of it? If we had non-tendered these guys (or giving Monty a QO and taken the draft pick) we wouldn't be in a materially different position now.

Like I said in the OP - we didn't have a choice but it also didn't help us. We need to be looking for an entirely different strategy to improve this team.

I think it’s a little early to say that we didn’t get materially better. Saggese has barely had any time in the big leagues (heck he went 3 for 8 over the weekend against the Cubs with a double and 2 RBI) and Tekoah Roby is in AAA on the cusp of the MLB. So those two pieces alone could (and probably will) determine the path that deadline takes us. And that’s also because they were the return in the biggest name we dealt.

And for your last sentence, I’d say hiring Bloom, bringing in Cerfolio and others is the way they are doing just that. But it won’t happen overnight, but I think it is changing.

Posted: **07 Jul 2025 15:57 pm**

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 15:41 pm Are you suggesting it would have been better to keep Montgomery, Flaherty, Hicks, DeJong and others?

We could have kept Monty the season and given him a QO and gotten the draft pick. That would maybe/likely be a better talent than what will or won't pan out.

The rest of them - we could have maybe traded them for proven major leaguers that need a change of scenery or whose owners didn't want their contracts. 3 way trades, that sort of thing.

Bottom line though - it really just didn't make that much difference whether we traded them or didn't trade them. Posters get so scared of missing out of what we could have gotten by not selling, and in retrospect, its not nearly as much as they were expecting.

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24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?

Re: 24 months ago we SOLD - where has that gotten us so far?